Originally Posted by LetsRoll (Post 2022808)

I'm just thinking out loud here. 3.B.4 guarantees that we will see pay rate increases, albeit relatively slow given the departure from the status quo of how the company has traditionally given pay increases to non-contracts. It's pretty much a given that American and United will be getting higher pay rates, especially since they don't have any kind of profit sharing. It's also relatively safe to say that our non-contracts will be getting raises again eventually. Failed TA2015 focused almost exclusively on pay rates and had almost zero quality of life improvements, and arguably had some quality of life concessions.

With that said, wouldn't it stand to reason that we concentrate our efforts on increasing QOL and "soft pay"? Why would we even consider giving up profit sharing for small pay rate increases that will be coming our way anyways in time? Keeping our profit sharing untouched guarantees that we will be compensated when times start getting better after the next downturn. We should be looking at increasing retirement, medical, vacation, time off, etc. There are other places to make money besides pay rates. Lets put that alleged $1.1 billion of "value" towards other things besides just pay rates. Again, the pay rates are coming our way anyways. Furthermore, our vacation is extremely inadequate. It was better at the regional I worked for. It basically amounts to one four day trip per week of vacation. Added vacation pay without the time off is a joke. I'm sure most of you have already thought of this stuff, but I thought I would throw it out there anyways.

Originally Posted by LetsRoll (Post 2022808)

I'm just thinking out loud here. 3.B.4 guarantees that we will see pay rate increases, albeit relatively slow given the departure from the status quo of how the company has traditionally given pay increases to non-contracts. It's pretty much a given that American and United will be getting higher pay rates, especially since they don't have any kind of profit sharing. It's also relatively safe to say that our non-contracts will be getting raises again eventually. Failed TA2015 focused almost exclusively on pay rates and had almost zero quality of life improvements, and arguably had some quality of life concessions.

With that said, wouldn't it stand to reason that we concentrate our efforts on increasing QOL and "soft pay"? Why would we even consider giving up profit sharing for small pay rate increases that will be coming our way anyways in time? Keeping our profit sharing untouched guarantees that we will be compensated when times start getting better after the next downturn. We should be looking at increasing retirement, medical, vacation, time off, etc. There are other places to make money besides pay rates. Lets put that alleged $1.1 billion of "value" towards other things besides just pay rates. Again, the pay rates are coming our way anyways. Furthermore, our vacation is extremely inadequate. It was better at the regional I worked for. It basically amounts to one four day trip per week of vacation. Added vacation pay without the time off is a joke. I'm sure most of you have already thought of this stuff, but I thought I would throw it out there anyways.

Originally Posted by LetsRoll (Post 2022808)

I'm just thinking out loud here. 3.B.4 guarantees that we will see pay rate increases, albeit relatively slow given the departure from the status quo of how the company has traditionally given pay increases to non-contracts. It's pretty much a given that American and United will be getting higher pay rates, especially since they don't have any kind of profit sharing. It's also relatively safe to say that our non-contracts will be getting raises again eventually. Failed TA2015 focused almost exclusively on pay rates and had almost zero quality of life improvements, and arguably had some quality of life concessions.

With that said, wouldn't it stand to reason that we concentrate our efforts on increasing QOL and "soft pay"? Why would we even consider giving up profit sharing for small pay rate increases that will be coming our way anyways in time? Keeping our profit sharing untouched guarantees that we will be compensated when times start getting better after the next downturn. We should be looking at increasing retirement, medical, vacation, time off, etc. There are other places to make money besides pay rates. Lets put that alleged $1.1 billion of "value" towards other things besides just pay rates. Again, the pay rates are coming our way anyways. Furthermore, our vacation is extremely inadequate. It was better at the regional I worked for. It basically amounts to one four day trip per week of vacation. Added vacation pay without the time off is a joke. I'm sure most of you have already thought of this stuff, but I thought I would throw it out there anyways.

Originally Posted by Army80 (Post 2022885)

They can give the non contracts more money next year (in the form of a bonus) without triggering a 3B4 event.

Sound crazy? How does 2 raises in one year sound?

I would not count on 3B4. It's a thorn for management, but it can be circumnavigated.

Originally Posted by notEnuf (Post 2023126)

To say 3B4 isn't going to give a raise, is to say non-cons will never again get another raise. Unlikely. If UAL gets 13%, we will have raises whenever the non-cons do for years to come.

Originally Posted by notEnuf (Post 2023126)

To say 3B4 isn't going to give a raise, is to say non-cons will never again get another raise. Unlikely. If UAL gets 13%, we will have raises whenever the non-cons do for years to come.

Originally Posted by Army80 (Post 2023295)

The non contracts may not get a raise for several years. The two raises they got this year will keep them off the war path for at least 18 months. After that the company can throw money at them in the form of a bonus, and that will not trigger a 3B4 event. IOW, 3B4 will probably not come to our rescue anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Army80 (Post 2023295)

The non contracts may not get a raise for several years. The two raises they got this year will keep them off the war path for at least 18 months. After that the company can throw money at them in the form of a bonus, and that will not trigger a 3B4 event. IOW, 3B4 will probably not come to our rescue anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Army80 (Post 2023295)

The non contracts may not get a raise for several years. The two raises they got this year will keep them off the war path for at least 18 months. After that the company can throw money at them in the form of a bonus, and that will not trigger a 3B4 event. IOW, 3B4 will probably not come to our rescue anytime soon.

Originally Posted by LetsRoll (Post 2023590)

This could well be true, but the point is it might be worth concentrating our negotiating capital towards other things that increase value besides pay rates.

Let's just assume that Delta is only willing to concede the stated $1.1 billion dollars of value over three years they offered us in TA2015. Most of that $1.1 billion dollar pie was made up of pay rate increases. Wouldn't it make sense to make that a much smaller piece of the pie and carve out larger slices of pie for retirement, medical costs, vacation and other areas that would put money in our pockets? I'm not arguing that the pie shouldn't have been bigger, to the tune of say $3 billion dollars over three years, but that's besides the point.

It might take 5 years to catch up to American or United, but it will eventually happen. In the mean time we've increased the value of our contact in other areas that we would have neglected in order to increase pay rates. Furthermore, giving up profit sharing for pay rates is pointless. With patience we can have both and use negotiating capital for other improvements.