Harwood's 3/10 post
 

For those not on Facebook. The smartest man in the room has more to say:

"The reaction to my previous post tells a lot about the logic and reasoning behind this “new direction” in the pilot group. When you are presented a fact based argument and your response is “You are a butthole” then you have a pretty good indication that you are bankrupt of ideas and are simply running on bluster. In fact this “new direction” and the “new MEC” are operating almost like a cult where you either adopt the gospel hook line and sinker or you are shunned from the society. You might note that you have already lost the orange lanyard unity war; if management sees someone with an orange lanyard they can either think the pilot is on board with the union or just afraid to be harassed by the Council 66 goon squad. “Join me or else” is not unity it’s blackmail.

Since there were no facts presented to counter my arguments I thought it might stimulate discussion to find out exactly how we got to C2K and understand the role of incremental pattern hopping. I am not sure exactly of the chronological order but this is close, starting around 1997-8:

We converted our profit sharing in a straight trade 6% profit sharing for 6% of pay. That’s right it wasn’t 14.5% in pay vs. 5% profit sharing like the TA is was a straight 1 for 1 trade. John Malone was the NC chairman.

American got a deal following the 15 minute strike.
We signed a 737 NG deal about on par with American’s rate.
Northwest got a deal following a strike, slightly ahead of American.
We signed a 777/767-400 deal ahead of Northwest’s 747 rate in a deal that also eliminated the B-Scale. We might have had a 3% general rate increase with that, but not sure.

United signed a deal that went a few points above our 777 rate and brought their other aircraft along

Delta signed a deal that was United plus 1% (C2K).
US Air’s me too clause kicked in and put them just above Delta.
That is how pattern bargaining works. You don’t take leaps of 45% at a time. You take incremental steps and you get all the carriers taking steps in a timely fashion to build on each other. That was one of the problems we had from about 2010 on. US Air was stalled, American was stalled, United was stalled, and Continental was stalled. The only pattern was being set by Delta. In fact, the United deal that was just signed was the first time someone gave us a pattern to bargain off of for years. Now we are squandering that opportunity because we are not following sound bargaining practices.

If someone believes this is possible I would like them to cite one example since deregulation where one carrier signed a deal that put them top of industry plus 45%. In fact you would be hard pressed to find any that were double digits above top of market; I am not sure there are any. That isn’t how pattern bargaining works.

Your second assignment is to go into a BMW dealer, get your whole family dressed up in orange, tell the dealer you took a survey of your family, and you demand a BMW top of the line sedan at 45% below invoice. Tell them you are unified in your position and they have to find the exact car you want within the exact time frame you tell them. Oh and then you can add the kicker; wait for it……wait for it……tell them that they have to make that deal because BMW makes billions in profits and they can afford it. Let me know how that works out for you.
Contract negotiations are not that mysterious. You just apply the normal rules you use in any negotiation; identify the market, research the market, make your offer based on facts and data. Sign the deal when you have gone as far as you can go. This is not a testosterone contest, this is not a propaganda contest, this is just a business deal. The same as any other deal just with bigger numbers. If you can’t get out of market by 45% on a $50,000 car, how are you going to do that on a $3,000,000,000 yearly contract? You can insult me all day and it won’t change that hard fact."

You are no more dumb for having read what this has-been had to say.

Ok, I'll admit, I haven't done the math. But when I read the new Dalpa counter offer/proposal after the much needed house cleaning, are we really asking for 45% more than United's current rates? I thought we asked for 15/7/7 or thereabouts without concessions. Is Uncle Richie factoring in our higher profit sharing to help make the company's case for them? Where is he getting the 45% above currently highest hourly rates?

I don't like feeling so stoopid, but I have no idea why he is saying we are asking for a 45% premium. Please help me feel more smarter. (Caution: Grammatical errors added for effect)

in the interest of full disclosure....it should be amplified that...... 'leaps forward'.......do not happen in a single bound.

however....leaps backwards apparently can, do, and HAVE happened in a single bound.....with the author of this drivel being foremost in facilitating and cheering on such occurrences.

as i pointed out to Dave Bushey when he was comparing dal pay rates to amr......we are going to have to be AT AMR+ 25% to even get my attention.....cuz the APA pilots that were uniformly scoffed at by alpa opertatives like this jackass....actually have a pension plan with real value.....and not simply an iou in a paper sack from their employer.

anyone who wonders what is wrong with alpa should understand it is the defective dna of the organism that elevated this type of individual to near deity status.

he is as wrong now....as he ever was..... but then we spend $50M /year in dues for 'volunteers' like this to tell us how stupid we all are......maybe we ARE that dumb?

Rich's BMW argument falls on it's face for a couple reasons:

1. WE are the BMW, not the purchaser. And WE are the ONLY BMW in the showroom. There are no alternatives for the company to purchase.

2. The Company is the purchaser, they are 'buying' our labor (BMW), at a price that is today 18% BELOW the 2004 BMW price!!

Tell Rich to walk into his BMW dealership and see if he can find a brand new BMW for 18% less than the 2004 sticker price!

He's an idiot and has forgotten (or never realized) that all capital is the result of labor, not vice versa.

Also, he and the MEC he worked for, never put a total dollar amount to the concessions we have been giving, and continue to give, to Delta Air Lines, since 2004. I estimate that half of last year's $6 Billion 'earnings' were directly attributable to OUR pay cuts and lost DB plan, and all the other ongoing concessions, like PBS reduced staffing (20% job loss), lost vacation, JV Scope compliance, etc.

For the life of me I don't understand why they can't undrtstand that the rejection of TA 2015 had little to do with pay rates.

It's sad that we had DALPA union leaders negotiating FOR management.

Bob,

Excellent points all. Far from drivel.

But we spend $50M/year in dues for volunteers like this to tell us how stupid we are...line of the year!!!

What Harwood and the rest of the Apple Dumpling Gang did was get on their knees and gave our execs 100% of what they wanted.

Massive concessions and self funding. They buy into the concept of permanent reset.

Our execs compensation is up over 900% since Chapter 11 and somehow Rich is cool with that.

Our vacation is a joke.

Southwest 210 hours max

FedEx 216 hours max

Delta 113:45

And nickel of per diem? Really?

Hey Rich, got two $20s for a $10?

Worst negotiation in the history of man.

Who makes concessions during record profits?

I have 100% faith in Captain Malone, our MEC and our negotiators.

What yall said.

If he had just taken a communications class at C Springs, he would have been on the White House lawn and not his brother.

That's probably where he'll end up, I don't see him ever returning to the line to be -just a pilot-. I'd bet he's trying to get into a NMB gig in DC, or a position at ALPA National, or some other Government funded job in DC.

Some of these guys are just more comfortable in an office 8-5, M-F, yapping on the phone and going to meetings, than being out in the real world, flying airplanes. I've never understood it, but that's been my observation over the years in the military and here.

There are some 'Pilots' who just don't like to fly!:eek:

Reading that brought one image to mind....

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/57876020.jpg

I am starting to question his sanity. Perhaps he should seek help. I feel bad for his FO's if he does come back to the line. I wouldn't want to fly with that butt-hole. Reminds me of the old Dalpa forum with Spank and Mulett calling everybody "stoopid".

This is great stuff. People are finally getting to see just how deeply the pro-management mindset had penetrated our union over the last 10 years.
We never stood a chance with these guys running the show.

Since their defeat, Harwood and Culp and Parker and Mullis and all the other Moakies are taking off their masks. They're showing us what they really thought of us rocket surgeon pV$$y-whiner line pilots.

I hope they will keep right on posting their opinions on Facebook.

Its the surest way possible to guarantee they will never be allowed near the union offices again.

Vacation, sick leave, training, retirement.......GFY

spot on. When attending the roadshows for the TA I couldn't tell if I was listening to a flight ops presentation or a union one. Really ridiculous

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Where do I start?!?!! You boys are making feel proud of my union for the first time in a long long time!! Well said fellas!!!!

We asked for 22/ 7/7 here is my math using the rates from this site which appear to be accurate.

Aircraft DAL current proposed first year bump United current rate
757 226 275 255
777 270 329 305
737 218 265 246

I just picked 3 aircraft and did the math and it looks like if we actually got the 22% first year bump then we would only be 7% above United....not 45%. So Rich needs to show me his math.

Although Harwood's 45% is not accurate or a bit too hyperbolic his chronology of pattern bargaining is close. The important point is Delta pilots enjoyed far greater compensation since 9/11 than any other US airline's pilot group due in large part to their constructive engagement with management that also helped prevent a merger with US Airways.

Term limits for going off line seems like a good idea doesn't?

He may feel free to resign his seniority number at any time.

I believe he is talking total pilot costs not pay. One of the new ATL reps said our costing would put us about 30% above UAL and 40% above AMR assuming static profit sharing. Not sure where he gets 45% unless he is assuming huge growth in the PS.

I think you are greatly simplifying this issue. From 9-11 until BK we were the highest paid because we had the last contract prior to 9-11. Simply a matter of timing. Post BK we were the first of the majors to merge, consequently the first to start clawing our way back to a respectable compensation level. I do give Lee Moak some credit here for thinking out of the box and getting labor on-board from the beginning.

So in my opinion constructive engagement may have helped us somewhat, mainly when it suited and aligned with management goals, but it was not the main or even a primary driver of our compensation advantage over our peers.

So I can agree with "somewhat due to constructive engagement...," but can not agree with "in large part due to constructive engagement."

Scoop

considering what we lost....like the unqualified half of the pension benefit......the claim of best compensated needs further definition.

i dont think im anywhere near $800K tax deferred rollover of b-plan ahead of my apa contemporary.....even with the 50% of the note and claim i took home.

Excellent point - even when we were the best compensated based on hourly rates, to be totally accurate you would have to factor in the pensions of the AMR guys which would obviously raise them up quite a bit.

Scoop

That is a good point. I forgot the APA pilots' pensions were frozen instead of terminated. But it highlights the role of politics in our success. AMR tried to terminate their pensions and the head of the PBGC said, "Not a chance." The American pilots benefitted greatly from timing and good political fortune in that regard, but some legacy NW and CAL pilots also have a frozen A-plans.

So you're telling me that the rest of our contract wants equals to 38% more above United? I must have forgotten some of the really huge items that we asked for since I can't for the life of me think of any that would put us that far ahead.

Southwest, FedEx and UPS might disagree.

Arguably AMR and NWA did better than Delta too. Depending on one's age and seniority.
A pension is worth a lot. Even a frozen one. All comes down to how long you live.

I am not telling you anything. I am telling what the rep stated. The numbers I believe we're from the third year of our contract offer compared to their actual. The numbers don't seem that far off however. Our pay alone will be 16% above UAL if we got 22,7,7. Add in all the other items including 10% more in PS and 30% seems accurate. Go back and read our opener. Lots of great items that were not in the pay rates.

This man is "sick". Stop paying attention to him and he will go away. He and his clown supporters are only in it for themselves, they are the epitome of greed. Because of his selfish and destructive ways (he promotes and sells ways to take away from our families), I can assure you "karma" will visit him. We have over 13000 members on this team; most of us are onboard and are willing to see this through!

TEN

Maybe he's using the PS not taken away as a raise.

I thought the latest UAL contract has a snap up clause that would bring their rates up to ours if we surpass them. Am I wrong?

Only if the current Delta profit sharing formula stays as-is

So lets keep it as is, raise our pay 22,8,8 and United pay is the same as ours. Seems pretty simple......

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da.../image_012.jpg

This slide shows it best. The industry is much more stable and profitable compared to 1999, when the C2K agreement was negotiated. Delta is fundamentally changed and the financial stability of the company provides for unprecedented shareholder returns. The C2K rates were achieved during a time management says they have improved upon greatly. The contract needs to reflect that great improvement. The sacrifices the pilots made are now completely unnecessary.

Trying to terminate the APA pension plan was a management fantasy. Their plan was 90%-ish funded in my recollection. There was simply no way AMR could make a case for termination. Wasn't politics as much as math. Timing.. yes in a lot of ways "timing" benefited them. IMO the most important thing was their A fund + B fund split meant less A fund to "fund." That said, it seems evident at this point that DAL could have reorganized AND funded our pension.. just maybe not in the time frame allowed by the rules. Have a great day gentlemen and ladies. Signed, Lostalotabucks, OFG

Pull up a 10k and see how much DL owes the PBGC, we owe more than AA. Delta never reports that debt when the say, "we want to get down to $7bn..." So while DL skipped town on retirement contributions and made record profits AA couldn't or didn't want to make it look like they could swing both either. Several years later and miraculously everyone can. It just stinks. Pillage the employees and return shareholder value. When there's no one left to keep the inflation train moving along you'll know where to look.

OK, 10-K.

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Delta does not owe the PBGC anything. They have obligations to pay pensions for all employees except pre merger Delta pilots. Those obligations have nothing to do with the PBGC. They carry pension obligations off the books so our debt is vastly understated.

I see long term debt is down to $6.7bn. In "other" in the same category there is an amount approx $18bn and under Current Liabilities another aniunt for $13bn. What exactly does that debt represent?

AAL has nearly the same total debt, it's just held in different categories.

NotEnuf, thanks for pasting that. So funded by 2031. Nice to see they contributed in 2015, my Reps had stated this was not the case in the years prior.