Well....maybe.

Human behavior being what it is....and with the typical pilot personality profile.....capping 'achievement' isn't likely to be popularly accepted.

The historic pwa circumstances Timbo is relating and referencing, are fundamental to traditional union labor agreements.

The collective benefit. Uniformity of economic outcomes. That is the imperative.

Restricted individual economic achievement, also serves the collective interests in increasing staffing requirements....growing the collective.

We are not going back. Particularly in light of our substantial ownership stake represented by PS. The way is forward. Although I doubt alpa is organizationally equipped to operate to our best advantage in this new paradigm.

Its kinda like Lincoln observed....in our new role...some pilots will work the pwa all of the time, and all pilots will work the pwa some of the time, but ALL pilots will not work the pwa All of the time. :)

individual pilots will circulate in and out of the batters box over their careers....for all you new pilots, the challenge is going to be sustaining a pwa that preserves the at bat opportunities in an equitable manner......and without eroding the genuine economic value in the working agreement.

This is an interesting line of argument. The problem is that it does nothing to help those that are in their maximum piece of equipment. (How much hourly increase would you need to see coupled with a 75 hour cap in order to not view it as a paycut?) Then the argument becomes "well, if guys were paid enough, they wouldn't have to work as many hours". THAT is a hollow argument because once guys were paid more they would become accustomed to that extra income and the then resultant cut in hours would be called a paycut. It is a fine line. Kind of like the pay banding/seniority pay argument. If it all happened simultaneously it could be pulled off but if it is done one piece at a time it won't work although pay banding is a good start toward seniority pay.

That hollow argument you speak of was the law of the land up until bankruptcy when we gave the company PBS and removed the cap. It is now a free for all, with guys downbidding to F/O just to get more greenslips.

At some point you (we) have to draw a line and say, "That's IT! NO MORE!". That line was drawn at 75 hours and worked great for many years, until we took the huge pay/retirement cuts in bankruptcy. We were told to 'live on the guarantee, (75, or 70 if you were on reserve) anything above that is gravy." But now guy are living on 90 hours a month, and wanting to pick up more.

I have no argument about what was. The hollow part of the argument is the part that states 'if guys were paid more/hour, they wouldn't need to work as much' In your second paragraph, you advocate going back to the old ways. That would be concessionary to many, ironically, you included.

How about an up or out clause? Standing by for incoming.

I saw this mentioned a couple times, what does that mean? I didn't think we could sell vacation back.

What we are talking about is picking up more flying in a vacation month. Here's an example. You have a week of vacation, your PBS bid awards you 3 trips, plus the week of vacation, your line is worth 80 hours.

But now after bid awards, the vacation credit time (22:45) is taken out of your line, it's now showing only 57:15, so you can now pick up an extra trip worth at least as much as the vacation time was, since it is not credited towards your max pickup limit, only to build the line in the first PBS run. You white slip a 25 hour trip and your line is now worth 82:15, and your pay for the month will be the 82:15 PLUS the original vacation time of 22:45, or 105 hours for the month.

Rather than staying home and enjoying your week off, you pick up another trip, or two trips, one 2 day on each side of your vacation week.

That is 'selling back your vacation.'

For every 3 guys who do that every month, that's one less pilot needed to fly those trips the vacation guys picked up.


Yes, I know you have to fit another trip into the remaining days off, and that could be tough for a domestic guy, because we can't pick up anything in the week that was our vacation, but a few months ago there was a guy on here saying we should be allowed to pick up more flying during our vacation week as well!:rolleyes:

We are our own worst enemy when it comes to flying too much, and then crying about slow upgrades!

Timbo. I haven't heard ANYBODY complain about slow upgrades in at least the last 2 years. Anybody that has a little more than a year with the company wants to upgrade now can do it.

"Well, yeah we knew that senior guys could stagnate us for years if they flew as much as possible every month, but 'we didn't think they'd do that'." :(

Thanks Timbo, back on board.

Made me think of something else, [that will probably make you wince], in the scenario you described, can you GS? Hw does GS trigger work in a vacay month?

Timbo, do you think the productivity increases at Delta and all the major airlines are the result of poor Union performance and pilot greed or could the explanation possibly be deregulation and a domestic juggernaut airline with no work caps running everyone else out of any market at will. Was it economic reality or pilot greed and buffoonery?