DL is indeed expanding its wide body inventory. Just not at DL. As long as AF, KLM, Korean, China Eastern, Aero Mexico, Virgin Atlantic have 747, 380, 787.. why does DL need them? They claim they do well making smaller piecemeal orders "opportunistic" they call it. I call it kicking the capital expenditure can down the road to fund stock buybacks that weaken us financially. Crap, we have a number of leased 737-900s... those are supposed to be the backbone of our fleet forever and I can't be convinced of a reason to lease any of them. We have 76ERs that are antiques. If we don't have replacements on the order book now we may wait years. I suspect management looks at our JVs as an international scab/replacement force. I trust our management to make money and take care of whomever is left flying for Delta. I'm just not sure what or how many jobs there will be. I'm also not sure how it affects hiring. If the typical UAL, AMR person can expect to spend twice the time on a wide body as a DL person.... That is a ton of career bucks difference. Rant over. Have a great Delta day. JMO, OFG

Interesting point. Super premium always has to pay more though. There is no other way.

OldFlyGuy,

That's my point....the widebodies aren't at Delta. I don't think we should buy 40 777s just to have them, but it becomes a problem when the disparity between our widebody fleet and UAL and AMR's widebody fleet continues to grow...to our disadvantage.

NAAAAH! she likes dogs not cats! Besides she worked for two and a half years and really quit when she married a Captain...And stayed married to him.

I simply agree. I've always felt eventually if we have less "metal" commitment to a JV we will be marginalized. Eventually the JV partners recognize that they have more capital risk at stake and could shift alliances. DL mgmt has addressed this by buying the JV partners. IMO we are looking at a classic "whipsaw" situation down the road. My career is almost done. This is about the future. There is a saying you "dance with the one what brung you" and I don't believe DL is living up to that commitment. If we can't come to an agreement I believe DL will simply propose to dump all scope limits (after all you can't disrupt commerce) and we will be in the same place as EAL vs Lorenzo. I hope I'm wrong. RLA and politics aren't on our side. JMO, OFG

...or the coup of getting the 777 lined up with the 747 and the 330 lined up with the 767. Whoops now we screwed ourselves going for a land grab. Management must have loved watching one side drop bigger aircraft into lower paying categories.

Boy did you hit the nail on the head there.....Moak reminds me of that guy from ANIMAL HOUSE...what was his name? Niedermayer...and his fraternity full of Niedermayer clones, hence the payscales and the like,,,,yes management is very much like Dean Wormer, and hence likes them a lot!!!!

You are absolutely right, why did we bring the 747 rate UP to the (DL) 777 rate. 😎

revise history much?

Look at Zoomi's post history. He's a hard-core management sympathizer.

Please, Oh wise one, explain to us how Old Fly Guy revised history. Also, share with us how we should cave on scope on both ends because of retirements and how we wont feel it.

[QUOTE=Dat jet;2150572]I don't have a problem necessarily with Delta having JVs/codeshares because it does have its advantages, but IT DOES bother me we do it so much. While UAL and AA have three times to four times as many 777s as we do...and are taking deliveries of 777-300s right now (which we don't even have on order) and they both have 787s on property. They'll get more and more of those type of aircraft while we fly around 767-300/300ERs.....and where is the replacement for these 72 aircraft? Don't say it's the new A350/A330 NEO order...that's only 50 aircraft. Between the 767 fleet and the 747 fleet....that's 88 aircraft. 72 + 16 = 88. And don't forget we have a whopping 18 777s

We have 58 767 ER's and 8 747's at the moment. We have 53 A330/A350's coming in the next 5 years. There are no 767ER retirements planned until after 2020 so we will lose 8 airframes. The current plan is to retire each airframe when it reaches 30 years old. They stated at the roadshows that they plan a 7ER replacement order in 2019 and that might be split into two or three orders.
A big chunk of the A330's and A350's coming were planned for the Shanghai hub. Rumor only on this part but negotiations with the Chinese are not going well and that may be why 4 A350 orders were delayed.

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151018]I would emphasize current plans. They do change. The driving philosophy is to leverage ownership in partner airlines to derisk Delta and drive efficiencies. There is no growth strategy outside of JV+equity acquisitions. Sorry to burst your bubble but organic growth is dead.

You know darn well those orders can be restructured at any time. Until they are on the property, they don't exist as far as pilots are concerned.

The orders at AMR and UAL can't be restructured? What is your point? Would you rather have no orders? As long as I can remember since the merger you have made similar statements about each batch of aircraft ordered. You have been wrong every time.

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151018]Unfortunately, these are plans that haven't helped the thousands of First Officers that have lived the stagnation here at Delta while AMR/UAL and our JV/Codeshare brothers amass hundreds of 777/A350/787/A380's. Not sure what color your glasses are, but that's the reality.

In fact, we have reduced our highest paying jobs. And here at Delta, the 777 has been described as an airplane with nowhere to go. Not my words. Why some continue to ignore the fact that Delta has become the travel agent to AF/KLM etc. is beyond me. Because of that practice, we have 18 777's and 8 747's, 26 highest tier paying aircraft. And we are falling behind. Our orders won't keep up. Those 58 767-ER's pay less than they did over 10 years ago. What's the replacement aircraft out there?

The Chinese don't want Apple in their markets either, what happens when they decide PVG isn't a Delta hub. Speculation doesn't cut it.

[QUOTE=Hank Kingsley;2151036]
You might want to look at actual hiring and advancement over the last 10 years at UAL and American compared to Delta. I think we have hired more then UAL and AMR combined.

There are no replacement aircraft being ordered yet for the 767ER because they are not being retired. Since Anderson came onboard the policy has been to order as aircraft are needed in small batches. It's been a very good policy. There was a recent article talking about how much less Delta has been paying for new airframes by buying on short notice opportunity.
I am clearly the optimist among the perpetual doom and gloomers on here but I actually don't think the Shanghai hub will materialize in the form Delta wants. If that happens I would expect to see the one of three things happen.
Current WB orders stay and 7ers retired earlier.
Current WB orders restructured
Current WB orders remain and 7Er's shifted to domestic transcons on a attempt to dominate that market.
Tell me the price of fuel in 3 years and I will tell you which one I think will happen.

I trust our management group to take care and look out for themselves only! That is what they have been doing for years now.. We are nothing more than an item on the debit side of the ledger to them. What actions by our current management has lead you to believe they give a rat's arse about our pilot group?? You do know that C.E. Woolman is no longer in charge right???

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151041]Oh, I assume you're a wide body Captain, you have convince the FO's you fly with. Most of the ones I work with have 20 years minimum and plan on retiring in that seat. If you were in the stagnant seat, you'd be singing a different tune.

[QUOTE=Hank Kingsley;2151051]The few trips I have flown my FO's look like they were 12 years old!

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151053]Yea, I saw one yesterday. At least they resemble the picture on their ID. Cheers

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151053]We were all 12 years old at one time... no?:D

If this bothers you, don't fly European or Asian carriers and look in the left seat. Just sayn' we still have the most experienced pilots in the world. Egypt Air 320 captain had 6800TT. I had 8200TT when hired into the right seat of an MD88. That was years ago. The 320 captain seat is just now going that junior but that will never be the norm.

Premium pay for premium experience. :D

Heck, I've got 8000 hours in Airbus at NWA and Delta and can't hold 320 captain in ATL.

[QUOTE=Hank Kingsley;2151051]Pointless to argue with Sailingfun. He gets his koolaid via an IV

[QUOTE=Dirtdiver;2151143]Yep, Delta has been totally stagnate, hasn't hire a soul, no plans to hire!

Delta has not deferred or changed any orders since the merger? Really?

Speaking of being wrong every time, sailingfud, you were the one panicking about 737s and 190s not being ordered unless we bent over for the TA.

I say again. Aircraft orders do not mean a thing to Delta pilots until those jets are on the property.

How'd you quote me, I didn't say that. Is that libel or slander? libel.

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151163]So we are adding to the bottom and not retiring many yet, how has that helped advancement?

Hey mods, the quote function is effed up again.

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151163][QUOTE=Dirtdiver;2151143]

Yep, Delta has been totally stagnate, hasn't hire a soul, no plans to hire![/QUOTE


"Delta has been totally stagnate," Correct - with the emphasis on "has been." Many 2000 and 2001 hire just recently getting opportunities to move to the left seat.

As to the second half of your sentence we all - we get the sarcasm. DAL is hiring tons of pilots and the movement has begun. Great for all 2014 + hires but does not erase the last 15 years for the previously mentioned group.

Now as to UAL and AMR - they are also no stranger to stagnation. My 2000 hire UAL bud was furloughed twice and my 99 hire in-law at AMR has experienced similar career trajectory to me ,sans the furlough.

With all that said I think the OP intent was forward looking access to WBs at DAL vs AMR and UCAL.

Scoop

[QUOTE=WhatNow;2151018]You still miss the point.....88 tails that could be retired in the next 7-8 years....and only 53 tails slated to come in.....that's a big gap....and that's my point.....PERIOD DOT

If the make another widebody order..fine, but not until those tails are delivered will I believe it.

[QUOTE=Dat jet;2151243]I am not missing the point. No idea where your 88 number comes from. We have 58 ER's and 8 747's. The first ER retirement is planned for the fall of 2020. The last one in 2031! They plan a widebody replacement order for those aircraft.

If you take anything out of my post other than I do not trust our management and fear they will ream us for their benefit.... (or someone's benefit other than the Delta pilots)...then I apparently miss-worded something. I'm trying to say we may have some very well compensated C series and 737 people and farm out the big stuff to the detriment of us all. No need to be on the attack as I'm pretty sure we are on the same page. OFG

Do you think we will ever have the widebody fleet that our peers at AA and UAL have?

UAL: 74 777's with 14 -300's on the way.
AA: 67 777's with 20 -300's on the way.

I know, I know, 777's aren't a "great fit for Delta." But they sure seem to be a great fit for our competitors (and our Skyteam partners.)

Face it, most guys hired today -- unless they're under 35 -- will retire as 737/320A's.

Never underestimate WhatNow/sailingfun's ability to screw up the quote function. The long running legacy continues...

[QUOTE=Dat jet;2151243]That is fine logic. You are comparing tails that "could be" be retired with a lower number that "will" be arriving on the property, all to promote your Debbie Downer point of view. Consistency please.

[QUOTE=Herkflyr;2151289]We have three A321's on the property, I just found out the company has not ordered their replacements for when they retire in 2045! OMG the sky is falling!

Good gosh, learn how to quote. And the number is 5 on property.

We are "refreshing" our fleet not growing our fleet. This is the CFOs term. Removing capacity to enhance PRASM. This all means what? Growth? Not by operation, only by acquisition and JVs.

[QUOTE=I don't know how to quote correctly!]
While this is all I expect of my future, I want more for these new hire FOs. They deserve more. Apparently, Delta mgmt doesn't seem to care and it's beginning to look like UA and AA is the place to be for those with apps in now. Sad, considering how profitable Delta is compared to UA and AA...