How about we counter with no change to PTIX, a public accounting of the calculation each quarter, and paid quarterly after each 10-Q filing. Not only management can tilt the table.

And our new 3B4 should be, when other employees get a raise , we get the same raise. No comparison, no time line.

"It's called negotiations."

Looking at the progress so far, I'd say one party is negotiating while the other is dictating things pretty well for themselves. And we're just waiting to see how much it will cost to get 'industry leading' pay for the 'world's best'.imo

A real negotiation would be refreshing.

Scoop, changes happen but what prevents them from changing it significantly in the future is the Delta Board of Directors, who approve executive compensation, and who answer to increasingly activist share holders.

If you think the BOD would block executives from taking their compensation out of our profit sharing (thereby increasing the companies bottom line), you've put your trust in the wrong people... Not surprising from you as your posts show you also put your trust in the Moakies and sell QOL for small pay increases crowd...."We didn't think they'd do THAT!!!" Heard it before...

Viking, I don't think the BOD would block executives from trying to remove their pay from the PTIX calculation. In fact that's exactly what they would like to do, but that's not what we are debating. We were debating whether or not executive pay is unlimited, which it is not.

Contrary to those who are simply making stuff up to create negative impressions of TA2, I'll stick to the facts. And when the time comes to vote on TA2, I'll judge it based on all the facts.

I'm sure you are just 'debating' exec. compensation... not messaging those among the 65% that voted 'NO' to TA1 because they 'misunderstood' "the facts" in TA1.

Yes, let's just debate exec. compensation because we have all had such vast experience on bod compensation committees, ignore this internal political farce. Appreciate your thinking of us.

It is unlimited if there is no limits written into in the PWA. Just as fuel hedge losses are now ordinary expenses and a one time write down of Venezuelian lost revenue is not a special expense but and ordinary one. They will find a way to widen any loophole, better to just prevent it.

idk about anybody else.....but 100 million a year is pretty much in the unlimited category in my reality.

And that's just 1 executive, the AIP includes all of them.

Not only executives but all Management personnel. All 2300+ of them.

Dharma,

In a perfect world that would be correct - if and only if the management compensation came off of the bottom line vice employee PS. Since neither qualifier exists I will have to disagree with your premise.

Do you remember that DAL management, in secret until they were exposed, set up BK proof pensions for management at the exact time they were planning the demise of the other employee groups pensions.

I would rather not rely on BOD or management "goodwill," ethics or morals as a mechanism for governing our PWA - a quick review of history reveals it would be imprudent to say the least.

If they were serious about this whole issue it would have to strictly defined with a % of profit sharing ceiling. But we already negotiated and agreed to a PS system - one that can not be easily manipulated, try our best to keep it.

Finally I think we are debating a moot point - I don't see this clause surviving and have heard from Reps that think it is a throwaway clause.

Scoop

It will cost us between 4% and 6%. The ALPA attorneys in the failed TA miscalculated this by a mile.

Ask your reps.

This is insane.

Why are we making concessions?

Why are we making concessions in return for nothing but empty promises.

Repeat of the failed TA.

The entire problem is that the Company, and by complicity, our own Union, has us chasing so many time-bomb Easter Egg grenades thrown behind our line that we have little time to look for the significant straight-forward gains.


Quit distracting us with baffling BS, keep what we started with and just get some simple, significant gains.

This clause as a .75% pay hit in the rejected TA. The pensionable portion of PS is 3-4% depending on the projected payout this year. IE the Pensionable portion of PS is 4X more costly. Its a non starter unless its converted to straight DC to get us to 19.5-20% total DC on our wages.

The definition is to align the definition with the GAPP definition.

There are ways to get what we want. a max escalator per year of 1-2% with a max cap. The bonus go down, thats the new limit and then they can only grow it 1-2% a year.

Keep your eye on the ball. One is much more costly than the other.

It probably will be a moot point, and like you I wouldn't put much faith in anything except for the greed of activist shareholders. Ultimately, owners are controllers.

You do realized we have an ownership stake. We are in the first position to collect on profits paid for not by money or represented in shares, but paid for in reductions in contractual obligations of pay, retirements, and other savings to the company. We already paid for that. We bought our profit sharing, it was not given.

I've never heard about this. Do you have any more details? This would be a valuable lesson to those who weren't around.for BK.

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gzsg : Do you mean 4%-6% of the profit sharing check or 4%-6% of total annual pay?

How did you calculate this?

Thanks in advance.
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Not sure about DAL, but the APFA at AA uncovered such a plot and unseated the pres.

I dont remember the exact details. But it was a bankruptcy proof offshore pension deal to retain top talent. Leo got 8 million and it went lower from there down to, IIRC vickie mascara got $2M. The most ridiculous one was $6M for the nitwit that went to United...fmr marine cant recall his name. Within a year all but 1 were gone.

The scheme was called a SERP, and it caused a firestorm of protest:

Delta's Retention Program Fails To Stop Some Executive Departures - WSJ

Delta Deep-Sixes Executive Pension Plan Payments | PLANSPONSOR

Kolshack?

I was very impressed with the while still in bankruptcy mgmt types came and addressed us in my newhire class. I sat next to Dickson at lunch that first day. My ignorant self looked at him and said "I'm sorry, who are you?" His ID was flipped around like all our IDs seem to be weighted to do when you inevitably forget their name. He was very friendly. Meanwhile....

Kolshack... that piece of work... the moment he walked in the room I immediately sensed a snake in the grass.

The executives secretly set up what were called "Secular Trusts" to pay themselves millions right out of the Delta treasury just prior to declaring bankruptcy.
The trusts were all fully funded and untouchable by the creditors.
Management said it was a "retention program" to keep top talent from leaving a bankrupt company. That's where "SERP" acronym comes from. "Supplemental Executive Retention Program".
Except, as soon as their trusts were funded, they all left.

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Not the precise definition. A SERP is a NQDC "top hat" plan typically granted to execs at larger companies. They do NOT conform to the 401(a) rules (thus the Non-Qualified part of NQDC). A SERP is a Supplemental Executive RETIREMENT PLAN. They typically have nothing to do with retention and are ubiquitous at large healthy companies.
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I believe Leo's SERP was closer to 16 million. They were retirement plans not retention plans. They shifted money from the normal retirement plans to insure their retirement was protected when they filed chapter 11. This had negative tax implications for the company which the company covered.

Whatever SERPs may "typically" be, in this case management justified them as a retention tool (neglecting to require that the recipients actually stay). Delta also paid the taxes for them.

Delta's Retention Program Fails To Stop Some Executive Departures - WSJ

One of the contributors to this WSJ article produced a book called Retirement Heist, which revealed nationwide looting of employee pension funds:

Retirement Heist - Pension Fraud Book - Ellen Schultz

Gosh.... maybe we should git sum of that for alpa......to stop all our high end talent from r-u-n-n-I-n o-f-f-t and forming labor cutthroat groups??