Mantooth and ERflier
 

What is an acceptable hourly pay increase? 18/4/4? Where are you guys at?

What is acceptable for a vacation day? We are at 3:15 and FedEx is 6 hours. Dickson promised industry leading work rules, not Tom Brielmann.

Should we make scope JV concessions like moving to block hours and bringing management immediately in compliance?

Should we allow more 76 seat jets at DCI and increase their MTGW?

If you believe anything SD says, I have some really great swamp land in central Nevada that you have to see!!!!!

Gerry, where are you going with this?

I'm not going to cherry-pick. I'll leave it up to the NC to get as much as they can. They're not perfect but they seem to be getting much more.

Ironically I was beginning think the last rejection of TA 1 was a good idea. I mean if we get $800M (it's already $600/year more) more per year than our current contract that's more than double from last time.

However, there is a point of diminishing returns. At what point does a complete stalemate lead to $0? That's the trick. To get something sooner rather than 1-2% more in four years. If they get nothing then voting No to C2015 was the dumbest thing we ever did and was all for nothing. We could have had more in C2015 and C2018 vice a fat goose egg.

A deal can be had. Heads just have to knocked together and the MEC needs to get some courage. They should just all be like Cincinnatus. Serve the pilots, and then go back to line and fly having done their duty.

Don't worry about another term. Do their damn jobs.

Every time you state it comes with more money is a lie.

With management exclusions on PS and exclusion of DC on PS, you could see a NEGATIVE value over current compensation rates.

It is FALSE. Period.

There is no limit on those exclusions, so they can make any new contract a loss.

What is frustrating you is social media has allowed pilots to expose your lies and deceit.

Im quoting your NC.

From Negotiators Notepad 16-08, July 21:

"Even under the Company’s unacceptable pay proposal, our net gain in value is already some $600M per year ahead of the PWA."

Go to http://dal.alpa.org/ for the document.

Using your logic one could say there's no limit to our profit sharing either. We could all be gazillionaires.

That guy will talk you in circles. No matter how many times you explain concessions, he ignores that and repeats whatever magic number ALPA spits out. You'll just end up blue in the face. He's a repeating parrot.

https://lh6.ggpht.com/0GIdzgyzaUEAS_...l74yxq7xw=w300

"Squawk, time value of money. Squawk, 600m in gains, squawk".

Their costing is suspect.
You only care about pay rates. Who exactly is your audience?

Division. Like he always does.

404, I asked in a different thread for you to explain this from a similar post you wrote. Now I know what you mean. I think you are wrong. Management Incentive Plan, and Equity Compensation is not a floating, undefined value to be changed at management will.

It is clearly defined in the Annexes to the 10-K. I'm not saying it can't reach a high value, but it is defined and limited.

It's defined and limited.......................until they unilaterally change it!?!:eek:

Denny

If the management exclusion on PS is in a TA, it is the most poisonous of pillls.

Agtually you are wrong to use rearward looking documents. Managements compensation in stock has ballooned with the stock buyback program. Richard anderson cashed in $130M+ this year. There are 2400 people in the management and executive pool.

DAL only started playing the stock buyback game and equity compensation for management recently. It has ballooned dramatically. Gerald Grinstein had 2.2million 10 years ago. Now, RA has cashed in $130M.

You push this as a fixed value against pilots profit sharing because you can lie anonymously on a webboard.

So management wants to help pay for executive compensation by reducing our profit sharing. How is anyone okay with this? Thats a big $&@k you to every pilot on the property. Papa

Papa,
Sadly management has been extracting contractual value from your and my wallet, abetted by Dalpa for a long time.

I really do not see that clause surviving to make it into our PWA. I am not a single issue voter but that has red flags all over it. :eek: Absolutely no ceiling or limit to what they can claim if this makes it into our contract, NADA, Zip, squat.

One would have to have 100% trust in our management team for this to pass - anyone on here have 100% confidence in our management team in this regard?

Finally and most important - we already negotiated this very item in previous contracts and wisely decided not to permit management to manipulate the PS payout - it would be very improvident of us to allow it going forward.

Scoop

If management is allowed this, it'll be completely destructive to PS. PS to every employee that receives it. PWA or not they will get X amount this year and simple ask the BOD for more of a carve out next year and so on! It is total greed. Think about it this way, did they offer discounted stock options to us? This is a single issue to vote NO, but I'm sure it won't be the only one.

This isn't true. The Management Incentive Plan and Equity Compensation is never a hidden undefined value. Just because you haven't taken the time to research the Annexes to the 10-K and find the info doesn't mean the documents don't exist. Don't be lazy. Ignoring information just because it doesn't fit in with your message is a path to failure.

As an edit to this post, this isn't a commentary on whether it should or should not be allowed to be excluded from the PTIX calculation (it should be retained as is IMO). I'm saying the comments about it being unlimited are wrong.

The idea that the executive bonus schedule is a fixed cost is laughable. That caveat in the contract(AIP for now) is so loose you could drive a truck through it. To hear a pilot defend it makes you very suspect.

Here is a question, can you tell me what the executive bonus schedule for 2018 will be? Nope. That's just the point.

Not true, the PTIX target for reward changes every year and is determined by management. the term "management compensation" is also undefined. Stock option and award value could easily eat up PTIX if the value of the stock increases to managements industrial PE valuation of $100+.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d.../image_017.jpg

They have already proven they will disregard intent. They are also already manipulating PTIX through accounting practices.

If they added 1.1 billion of cost via a pilot contract what would that due to our profit sharing percentage?

Just to clarify, you're asking about if the company put 1.1 billion in our pockets, what would happen with the other pocket?

Would you rather have 100% of 1.1 billion, or 20% of 1.1 billion? Jeeze.

I ask because people said we would get less profit sharing because the other groups got a raise so if we get a raise what can we expect to happen to our ps payout?

I also have doubts that they were really giving us 1 billion

They are forward looking documents that clearly define the parameters. Just trying to be factual. It may not fit in with your viewpoint but being truthful will provide a better outcome.

Well this is going to get interesting.

To maintain their 20% margin the buy backs, debt payments and extra funding of retirement would slow. Oops, all those are coming to an end under the current authorization or have been announced to be reduced or will make money in a few years.

The profit will remain, why do you think they want an undefined carve out of your profit sharing?

Hmmmm.....if revenues stay constant, expenses would logically increase and therefore available profit sharing would decrease. But, as mentioned above, I would much prefer to see the pilots get 100% of an additional $1.1B and therefore get a smaller profit sharing payout (because of reduced profit, not due to a reduction in the current plan).

^This TRUMPS any claim by appeasers/apologists that they 'know' how the 'to date proposals' impact the dal pilot. They're starting point is 'agreed to language' from a trustworthy negotiating entity... false assumption. In their defense, it seems the NC and admin are making the same assumption.

How many times have we been left holding the bag because of lies, deceit? How has that JV settlement check trade for seat progression treating you? Seat progression for a couple weeks of groceries? A pennies on the dollar WIN for dal mgt. And we said "duh, ok"... you can't make this stuff up.

Do these folks really think that the management carve out of the dal pilot profit sharing is some simple, loophole free clause? If so, why did the strategy evolve from stripping value by cutting the thresholds, to sympathy pleas to share the non-contract pain, to sketchy accounting changes to PTIX? You can tell management is not letting anything stop them, while we know how things work on our side by the outright lies sold to us in the 'Summer of '15'.

They want the money and they will take any avenue to get it. Dalpa is simply attempting to make it palatable for the dal pilot to stick it in the pilot working agreement.

At this point, the 'totality'(as these posters say) of any TA is secondary for me. If this NC and administration are not in this to WIN, they will lose... and more than they bargained for, imo.

Define 'management'. If chief pilots are paid a bonus, does that not dilute the pool? And how many middle management employees will subsequently receive 'bonuses' in lieu of pay increases? PS is a big number, and a large percentage of revenue that is going to the employees. I am guessing that the hedge fund managers and big institutional investors are jumping on the CFO's desk about it. No. This loophole is too big, and it is a concession to profit sharing. It is too open ended for my taste.

I totally agree with that assessment.

I do to, can't believe it. Pigs are lining up for take off.

How does knowing what past compensation was limit future compensation? Hint-it does not.

Additionally in the past management incentive compensation reduced company profitability - if this change were to be allowed management incentive compensation would no longer reduce the companies profitability but would reduce the employee PS.

So while the incentive plan may be currently defined - what is to prevent them from changing it in the future. Especially when it is coming from a different pot of money.

It would be very foolish of us to agree to this.

Scoop

Unbelievably foolish. So why is anyone pushing it?

Ideas?

The language is "Management Compensation". Thinking just about bonuses is too small. The way I read it is Total Management Compensation until it's written differently.

dubya tee ef does that mean?

You're correct. Its the entire management pay package, including benefits; in cash, stock, perdiem, health, travel, vacations, if the company buys someone a house, etc. etc. etc. It is completely open ended.

The change to PTIX is a company counter offer - not a final deal. Let the NC counter with no change to PTIX.

It's called negotiations.

We know what it's called. The problem is we are operating with a stale-rotten opener, a manipuled survey, a negotiating committee that is concession oriented, lack of leadership at the top (as evidenced by LEC strong letters), and a management team that is taking this to a self help regardless. They made it through the summer.

Erflyer, my vote will cancel yours more than likely. So, maybe, just maybe you can quit the selling of substandard and explain to us why YOU are so willing to accept less.