The Surveys
 

For years, I have heard that "they didn't follow the survey."

While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.

That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?

If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.

Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.

We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.

If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.

It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.

For the first time in my 20 years as an ALPA member, my union is finally listening to there members. This is a good thing, isn't it? Papa

You can keep repeating the same threads, that democracy isn't fun when you are no longer in power, to try and distract from the fact the company paid the ex-ceo over $80 million from Jan. 1 through July, while complaining about their perceived sick abuse by 13,000 pilots to the tune of $50 million, but it won't work anymore.

Cheers.

So when the magnificent 12 stood up and showed leadership by representing the majority, that didn't count because you don't like it. Got it.

No. It counted alright. But it very likely screwed us.

Exactly. He doesn't like democracy and just repeats it over and over and over.

You feel screwed because you'll give away our work rules for a few schillings and you're not getting your schillings.

The screwing I see is what your group is trying to do with the work rules I still have 20+ years to be under. A few schillings won't let me turn a blind eye to what the company and your ilk are trying to do.

Uh huh. They're draconian.

Possibly getting a doctor's note (maybe) an extra time or two over a career doesn't sound that awful to me. But maybe your guy charges a lot more than mine.

Just curious what are the worst work rule changes, in your opinion, and how will each one affect the pilot group? The only concrete thing I've seen so far is the sick thing. Another serious question: is 28% over 3 years with retro and no change to PS a few shillings? Seems to have the potential to make a difference in a lot of lives to me.

Guess I'm not seeing the contract devastation that gets advertised here. With a few improvements to rigs, training, vacation added to a pay increase we could have a big increase in QOL that would dwarf any of the company items I've seen so far.

Boo Hoo and Blah Blah

How about ALV increase, VEBA, VB, pulling trips between every PCS run, management numbers from PTIX and loss of DC on PS? Are these all increases above book to you? And please do tell me where you came up with 28 percent in 3 years from? I've read the AIP's, and I've read the companies section 3 offer. Nowhere near that number. I saw 15.5/3/3.

Hey mods, isn't there an anti-spamming provision in these boards? When one poster repeats the exact same info, verbatim, time after time, it reeks of spamming. Please edit appropriately.

No inside info but I was working off an idea posted on here that 18,5,5 no changes to PS, full retro might be a number now.

I'll agree with you that the gives are something we shouldn't have to do. I'm just saying do we want to work ourselves in a frenzy over things that might not be a huge deal (VB can be cancelled) and end up shooting ourselves in the foot.

Far less than that when you factor in the unlimited management exclusions and DC loss on PS.

Exactly, these guys keep repeating themselves that concessions are necessary when 1 person gets paid by the company over $80 million in less than 7 months.

I rest my case. Mods, if you let these boards devolve into the cesspool known as chit chat, this will be one highlight.

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that we had reached any agreement on PTIX or PS.

We wouldn't be going off half-cocked, or anything, would we?

With respect to the OP, I'm not even asking for leadership. Results would be sufficient. If you have a term paper due, you turn it in for a grade. If you don't have it done, you don't burn the school and run out.

No one can prove it intil we see the flames in this case (since we can't see direction) but by all accounts the dispute is that the 12 threw their "work" in the trash, and left the building, leaving direction to start at square one.

We'll know soon enough if they've gotten us parked. One quote I've heard from a source is that we're "soft-parked". Forget last week: the 12 have been incapable of giving definitive guidance for about three weeks before that. So one source thinks we're just in denial about the fact we're already parked. Another source thinks we might be able to survive the status conference, and the 12 are coming to terms with what they've done.

Leadership is yet another step above the most basic minimum the 19 need to do: show their work. You're asking for a lot.

And you can keep repeating the same nonsense and it still isn't true.

One poster alluded to a 28% pay raise....well a 28% pay raise, even with no changes to profit sharing won't pass a pilot vote right now. A TA with that pay raise would get shot down, and when you consider sick leave, VB, etc....its only going to anger and frurther infuriate the pilot base. Those hourly pay rates for our 767s don't even come within a solar system of the UPS 767 hourly pay rates.

Before anyone chimes in....PAY RATES AND PROFIT SHARING ARE TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES.....DO NOT LUMP THEM IN TOGETHER

You may be right about it not passing but if it's anywhere close we better at least get a chance to vote on it.

If it's gonna get shot down...which this TA would....I don't want to see it come to vote.

It getting shot down is your opinion. You're just 1 of 13500 of us.

You are right. It's my opinion, but if vacation pay, vacation time, training pay, and 401K aren't significantly, SIGNIFICANTLY increased, it just won't be my opinion.....it will be the majority. The platform was a 36% pay raise in 3 years....28% over a longer period of time doesn't come close to our platform.

28% hourly pay rate raises IS NOT industry leading. 16% 401K is not industry leading...etc

Do you consider UPS to be in the airline industry?

Surveys and leadership.

I think both are important.

A. I don't think the MEC wants to negotiate something that they KNOW the pilots don't prefer.
B. If our MECs (at the time there were two) had followed the 2008 survey to the letter, we wouldn't have the Profit Sharing we have now.

Sticking to the guidance in the survey is good. Failing to use the briefings and the information the MEC gets (that the pilots don't) is bad.

I think that's reasonable.

Given the opportunity cost of this round, I would err on the side of more, not less. We have a sweet spot now financially that should not be wasted for a deal. Let's get THE deal.

Hopefully you will remain clear of representing dal pilots.

I agree that we are in a sweet spot. I agree that we shouldn't waste it, as those of us who were here for the bad times know that those sweet spots don't last forever. Ask the APA in 2001.

It seems that the MEC is (against the advice of the NC, the administration, the attorneys, and the NMB) passing up a great deal to try for the perfect deal (which doesn't exist).

If we waste this fleeting opportunity, we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves.

Not to worry. I tell the truth and don't pander, so I'd never get elected.

Also, I'd probably achieve gains for our pilot group, so I'd never fit in with our MEC, which hasn't achieved a blessed thing.

Evidently polling data indicates otherwise.

Passing up a great deal? Could you post it here for the rest of us to read?

Another one privy to polling data who knows better than you. :confused::rolleyes:

TA is weeks away at best, we are not giving scope or profit sharing concessions. You know the phone calls between Ed and John are the real negotiations done behind the scenes. The NMB can't stop those. If Ed wants a deal, he'll have to come with cash, not lawyers. I already have one on retainer who is going to review the language of whatever TA we get. 60 days to pick it apart with a pro/con paper and I'm still not taking any chances. Do it right or don't do it at all. If they try to shorten it to 45 days, you know what's up.

You have a lawyer on retainer to review the possible TA? Wow.

This could affect the next 20 years of my life, that's a small investment in my future. Given the sales job that happened last time, I want an independent review of the language. The drumbeat has intensified given all the old guard names that are popping up to post.

If we get something soon the retro will cover it.

I disagree. That would pass.

If we got that rate, and -as you say- the DAL 767s won't be in the same solar system as UPS's, how do you then justify paying the 76 UPS+ when it would put our 777s out somewhere with Voyager? The 777s deserve to be way out of whack relative to everyone else? Bullsqueeze. If they do, so does everyone else.

The point is, you are cherrypicking a contract that is vastly different than ours. Tell me how you plan on rectifying that.

Absolutely.

This is the problem. We are hearing two distinctively different versions coming from the MEC:

From the Dirty Dozen - The company has barely moved of its inadequate last offer. If this is the case No brainer, keep at it and come back when we get a better offer.

From the Magnificent 7 - We are within reach of a very good deal but internal squabbles may prevent us from bringing it to fruition.
Also a No brainer - Bring us a TA and let the Pilots decide.

The problem is both of these stories can not be true. My bet is its probably somewhere in between.

Scoop