The Surveys
08-19-2016, 10:17 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 260
The Surveys
For years, I have heard that "they didn't follow the survey."
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
08-19-2016, 10:39 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: 320/fo
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by D Mantooth
For years, I have heard that "they didn't follow the survey."
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
08-19-2016, 10:39 AM
#3
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 988
You can keep repeating the same threads, that democracy isn't fun when you are no longer in power, to try and distract from the fact the company paid the ex-ceo over $80 million from Jan. 1 through July, while complaining about their perceived sick abuse by 13,000 pilots to the tune of $50 million, but it won't work anymore.
Cheers.
Cheers.
08-19-2016, 10:46 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
Originally Posted by D Mantooth
For years, I have heard that "they didn't follow the survey."
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
So when the magnificent 12 stood up and showed leadership by representing the majority, that didn't count because you don't like it. Got it.
08-19-2016, 10:50 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 260
Originally Posted by capncrunch
So when the magnificent 12 stood up and showed leadership by representing the majority, that didn't count because you don't like it. Got it.
08-19-2016, 11:00 AM
#6
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 988
Originally Posted by capncrunch
So when the magnificent 12 stood up and showed leadership by representing the majority, that didn't count because you don't like it. Got it.
08-19-2016, 11:01 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
Originally Posted by D Mantooth
No. It counted alright. But it very likely screwed us.
The screwing I see is what your group is trying to do with the work rules I still have 20+ years to be under. A few schillings won't let me turn a blind eye to what the company and your ilk are trying to do.
08-19-2016, 11:06 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 260
Originally Posted by capncrunch
You feel screwed because you'll give away our work rules for a few schillings and you're not getting your schillings.
The screwing I see is what your group is trying to do with the work rules I still have 20+ years to be under. A few schillings won't let me turn a blind eye to my QOL.
The screwing I see is what your group is trying to do with the work rules I still have 20+ years to be under. A few schillings won't let me turn a blind eye to my QOL.
Possibly getting a doctor's note (maybe) an extra time or two over a career doesn't sound that awful to me. But maybe your guy charges a lot more than mine.
08-19-2016, 11:18 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by capncrunch
You feel screwed because you'll give away our work rules for a few schillings and you're not getting your schillings.
The screwing I see is what your group is trying to do with the work rules I still have 20+ years to be under. A few schillings won't let me turn a blind eye to what the company and your ilk are trying to do.
The screwing I see is what your group is trying to do with the work rules I still have 20+ years to be under. A few schillings won't let me turn a blind eye to what the company and your ilk are trying to do.
Guess I'm not seeing the contract devastation that gets advertised here. With a few improvements to rigs, training, vacation added to a pay increase we could have a big increase in QOL that would dwarf any of the company items I've seen so far.
08-19-2016, 11:21 AM
#10
Bus driver
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 830
Originally Posted by D Mantooth
For years, I have heard that "they didn't follow the survey."
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
While that may or may not be accurate, it is also irrelevant. Polling is a tool, primarily used to judge the pilots' priorities. It does not (nor is it intended to) lock our negotiators into any one position. It is meant to assist them, not to handcuff them. Often, market forces, political pressures, economic factors, etc. prevent negotiators from achieving every item in surveys. It's common and expected.
That's where leadership comes in. Leadership that at the moment we seem to be lacking. Our reps are supposed to represent us, but they are also supposed to lead. They are privy to things we aren't. They have information that we don't. We elect them and pay them to make decisions on our behalf. They are not supposed to be mindless megaphones for the pilots. If they are, why not just replace them with Internet polling and have what amounts to a 13,500-man negotiating committee?
If every pilot asked for a million dollars a year in the survey, many on here believe that our MEC's job is then to get every pilot a million dollars a year. It isn't. True leaders, ones who aren't scared of their pilots, would write updates, stand in the lounges, face the slings and arrows of angry pilots, and explain reality.
Unfortunately, our MEC is beginning to look like panderers, rather than leaders. Not sure what your reps are? Ask yourself if they have ever said anything that you didn't want to hear. If they haven't, then you don't have a leader, you have a panderer. And eventually, those panderers are going to cost you a fortune if they don't learn to lead.
We deserve an industry-leading contract. We shouldn't accept anything less. But true leaders should tell you that "industry-leading" doesn't mean every page of every section of the PWA, and that the only way that that goal is achievable is to address some of management's concerns as well. There will be small "gives" in the next contract. There is simply no way around it. And your reps know it.
If they aren't telling you that, they are not only pandering, they are ignoring and suppressing the voice and advice of the experts that they have hired to advise them. And they are lying to you.
It's easy to be a hero. Just tell people what they want to hear. But eventually the people are going to want to see some results. I just hope they don't wait too long.
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