Well hopefully in future contracts the younger guys coming on board will realize how stupid the current pay scheme is and get it changed.

You'd think with the future increase in training events, the company will bring it up next time around.

The Southwest pilots will never get a deal after they called for their CEO to step down.

Oh wait.....

They did not get anywhere near the deal you assured us they would get.

Again if we accepted their agreement in whole we would need over 8000 more pilots and average 4 days more off per month domestic and have a higher w-2.

Show your work Mr Minister.

You are so full of it.

Given latitude by who? 65% of us give no latitude with respect to a concessionary contract. We expect gains in scope, vacation, sick leave and training, not trades for pay rates. When those negotiating on both sides finally figure out it is about 28 sections of the contract, not just a few tables in section 3, we will get somewhere. Until then it's just moving the deck chairs around.

The 12 crafted and dictated the direction to the NC.

Basically you can discredit anything gzsg says. I don't think one of his predictions has come true. How about the company coming crawling back to us within 48 hours after we turned down the TA? Or how about this gem made a few weeks ago when he stated we would have a deal soon because SWA is going to get $300 an hour for the 737. Yeah right.

Well..... using the math some have..... if you add the 401/dc money its close:D

That is true. Even Delta managements current table position puts our 737 rate at 363 an hour on 1 Jan with a 20% PS payout.

I think you will see this become a priority as we get more and more new hires on property. Our next contract could see >50% of pilots with <7-10 years of service.

okay.....ink us a 10 year contract with 363/hr on signing and 5% a year....secured with Ed and RAs stock portfolio and I believe we have a deal.

Current management proposal is $302/hr?

Total compensation, they made some nice progress. How many concessions? IDK their contract.

One airplane, very efficient operation. DAL makes us pay for multiple fleets, training, yada, yada...and calls it pilot costs. But you can buy that POS tablet, these guys are unbelievable. Seriously, you can't find worse leadership skills. You'd get passed over for O-2 if you were this bad.

Their current position on I Jan is 261 plus a 16 DC. The original post referenced the SWA rate with the DC rate added in. My reply was to that post. I was crediting SWA with a 251.an hour base rate on their new TA. Posters now say it's falls somewhere between 245 and 248.

I make fun of sailingfun for bad data a lot.... but holy crap, you have set a new record of just absurdity.

I just spit lasagna all over my phone...Too funny!

That is an ENORMOUS LEAP you just took, equating your needs to the rest of us 65% No voters.....

This might be the silliest thing ever posted on these boards!!!!! I've known of few guys over the years who subscribe to the theory that the more outrageous a lie is the more believable it might be.....Their Flight Ops business model is just a little different than ours. One size doesn't fit all. Impossible to make that leap when comparing a domestic, one jet operation with our (admittedly) bulkier, inefficient fleet with categories as small as 10 to 40 jets. Try comparing apples to at least watermelons.

Why must you commingle Profit sharing and pay rates? This is insane. Show your math. Best I come up with is $315/hr if you lump it all together. Sorry they are two different forms of compensation from two different sources, protecting both time and investment of the Delta pilots.

I wanna know how he came up with $363. If, as he said, it is assuming a 20% PS payout, that would mean the company's offer is $303. (Math in public)

They can change anything they want in the AIPs. I'm a "no" based on the sick TA language. That's right. The sick leave garbage has already been TA'd. It won't change.

Other pilot groups improve their QOL, while we actively seek to sell it. Pathetic.

I may have projected the reasons for my NO vote onto the rest of the group. It is possible that some would consider concessions in scope or sick leave and possibly the ongoing concessions we've given in vacation and training pay for a large enough pay increase. To be more accurate, in my small sample size of the few dozen pilots I've flow with who voted NO, there haven't been any who indicated they would consider concessions in scope or sick leave, nor are they in favor of a minuscule 15' pay no credit for vacation. Based on that small sample size I'm still concerned about the original statement that the negotiating committee was given "more latitude". That term indicates that they may have been given direction to pull back from what would be an acceptable position, to one that is in more danger of failing memrat.

I think that's a very fair way to express it.

My observation is that you're right: everyone figures the group is just like them. In theory, polling and survey data help solve that problem reliably. Certainly, a vote would do the job.

Honestly, the "Focus Plus" approach of the MEC is all theirs. Until the 12 tried to renege on it, they were involved in every step of developing these AIP's. They did so thinking it would save time, but it also opened a lot of other sections, for not a lot of difference from TA1. Whatever. This is where they invested the last year, and from here, there is no way you can trash the AIP's wholesale (probably not more than a couple) without trashing the entire mediation process (i.e. square one). So you're stuck having to get a taste of the whole menu to see whether you want to order the meal or not.

In an alternate universe, maybe the MEC would have gone for a clean but smaller raise? No one knows.

Certainly what no one can say, in any small sample, is how they would vote on a TA they can't see, with some of the most important sections undetermined. I really doubt the average pilot is cool with not getting 1) a deal, and 2) a vote, no matter how they view individual concessions/gains.

The math is easy. Current rate 218.00. 16.5% now and 3% on I Jan. DC rate of 16% on 1 Jan. The original poster included those items. The comparison is us to SW so adding PS is valid since our program is better.
Delta Rate with DC on 1 Jan. 303
SWA rate with DC on 1 Jan. 278

I fully expect we will see a slightly higher rate in the final product and I expect to retain the pensionability aspect of the PS. I used the companies current table position as worst case numbers.

Whose proposed vacation is better? Whose proposed fatigue policy? (Hint: it's not the one with a fitness review board). Whose sick provisions? Whose scope?
Again, you are fixating on pay rates. Big mistake.

There are other aspects you omit. The biggest being pickups allowed at straight rates to FAR limits. That's a Delta management wet dream!

As someone that was unable to vote on the last TA, you can be sure I'll be looking at the above items on the next one and will have no qualms voting no if they don't change from the AIPs. Pay raises are nice, but not if they're paid for with concessions especially when I have 20+ years remaining.

Great. What is the cost to us to obtain those rates? Hint: see AIPs. We aren't "unlocking value" we are selling work rules for a few bucks. If the AIPs that have been presented are any indication of the full language TA, I would not expect the MEC to pass that.

So, if you wanna focus on pay rates alone we are about 3-4 PWAs away from industry leading rates with Allegiant work rules. Right? The biggest winner in this is the UAL pilot group if we get these rates at the cost of work rules. That is about the only "win" in this for anyone based off what we have seen so far.

bingo!!!!!

You don't think that's happening at Delta right now? We have no hard caps, just FAR117. Guys use the P2P swap board and/or swap with the pot to get way above ALV+15 every day.

Some do, it's certainly not possible in my category. If we dropped the caps you would see a enormous job loss. There are outliers for everything. In my prior category I was probably averaging 78 hours working 9 days a month and getting positive space to and from work. I don't post it saying how great things are at Delta because I know it's not the norm.
Of course according to the forum nobody can swap anything!

LOL. The TA could offer 100% raises and 364 days off a year and you'd vote no.

That would equate to double work during a leap year. F-no!

Timbo is right on this. One of my contract survey/polling issues has been to limit ALL pickup to ALV + 15. Mgmt LOVES when we volunteer to fly straight rate to FAR. Dude called me last year to swap a trip.. so he could position himself to pick up to FAR... I told him he'd personally probably cost someone 3 GS the preceding year. Duhh. I also don't understand PD's comments about the fitness review board... isn't the FRB an improvement over current language? Another "poster" seems to think UAL's work rules are better... How? 1 Cap and 3 FO on ultra long haul? Would you like that Timbo? A few days ago someone complained that new hires on reserve were being flown every day... in summer... Really? They are new hires on reserve on call. We have all been there. It's an education in the seniority vs junior-ity system. Contract wise I'm not advocating giving up much, but exchanges greatly in our favor need consideration and occasionally on the Forum we should compare apples to apples. Still awaiting a final product. Still a little angry with company response(s)... engaged.. No hurry. OFG

The Fitness review board is a big improvement over what we now have. The real beauty of it is that you can't not get paid for a fatigue call unless the union agrees with it. If the 2/2 board deadlocks you're paid.

Agree. We don't have a functional cap. I think we're too permissive. I think a lot of guys would pop a vein if we tried to change it, even some of the people who claim to be QOL afficionados.

Vacation and training should also be pay and credit.

Agreed...at 5.15 or greater.