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preach it OFG!!
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 2193435)
The Fitness review board is a big improvement over what we now have. The real beauty of it is that you can't not get paid for a fatigue call unless the union agrees with it. If the 2/2 board deadlocks you're paid.
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Originally Posted by Vikz09
(Post 2193489)
Unless, one of the career ALPA shills is involved in the process. There are a few i would never want standing between me and a fatigue call...50/50 outcome at best!
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Originally Posted by notEnuf
(Post 2193234)
Why must you commingle Profit sharing and pay rates? This is insane. Show your math. Best I come up with is $315/hr if you lump it all together. Sorry they are two different forms of compensation from two different sources, protecting both time and investment of the Delta pilots.
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 2193324)
The math is easy. Current rate 218.00. 16.5% now and 3% on I Jan. DC rate of 16% on 1 Jan. The original poster included those items. The comparison is us to SW so adding PS is valid since our program is better.
Delta Rate with DC on 1 Jan. 303 SWA rate with DC on 1 Jan. 278 I fully expect we will see a slightly higher rate in the final product and I expect to retain the pensionability aspect of the PS. I used the companies current table position as worst case numbers. I plan on the PS number being zero and that way I am pleasantly surprised when something other than $0 shows up on Valentine's Day. Pay rates are pay rates and profit sharing is profit sharing. The two are independent methods of compensation but only one is "certain." Emphasize and strengthen the "certain." 😊 |
well....we have it on expert economic authority black swans are imminent.....so its only prudent to set ps value at zero....and base our discussions entirely on tangible compensation.
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Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 2193544)
Why do we willingly discuss PS as part of a pay increase in this TA??? We paid for PS in lieu of payrates many years ago. It should be completely left out of the discussion and only be negotiated separate of rates.
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2012?.....how about to 2005?!:D
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SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS. Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots. :54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots. 6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots. At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip. Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45. |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 2193672)
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS. Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots. :54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots. 6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots. At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip. Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45. |
I'm not too sure about that satchip, maybe a SME could chime in for clarification. I had a SWA JS'er that bids 3 day trips. They are usually worth about 21 hours. One of the days he showed us was no kidding 7 block. But the other was only 4. I believe where they make hay is with a min day worth close to 7 hours? Again, maybe someone who works there could clarify. As to the 5:15 ADG, I will give you that it's better than 4:30 DPA. We paid a dear price to get it in the 117 LOA; we increased reroute coverage time, via section 23 ladder, from 3 hours to 14 hours. We also lost our contractual buffers, and made 117 controlling. Two pretty big gets for the company. So I have a 3 day on the 717 worth 15:45, with a 30 hr layover. The trip probably credits 2 to 3 hours. So on the two flying days, that's normally eight legs, and about 12 to 13 block hours. Not exactly a picnic, with a 3:30 wake up. We all work pretty hard flying domestically, no one can deny SWA's incredible productivity.
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Originally Posted by FL370esq
(Post 2193545)
The math is simple when the numbers are certain. What exactly is our "certain" PS number for 2016? For 2017?
I plan on the PS number being zero and that way I am pleasantly surprised when something other than $0 shows up on Valentine's Day. Pay rates are pay rates and profit sharing is profit sharing. The two are independent methods of compensation but only one is "certain." Emphasize and strengthen the "certain." 😊 |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 2193680)
Using your own words, you should be the very biggest cheerleader of trading PS for pay rates. After all, if you plan on PS being "zero" and anything on Feb 14 is merely a "pleasant surprise" then wouldn't you much rather have higher pay rates throughout the year--money now being worth more than money later--and get your "planned" PS payout of zero in February? I know that I would. More importantly, the math says that.
Profit sharing is the distribution of "found money" paid after expenses have been paid from revenue. I want my pay rates to be industry leading realizing that the expenses which are deducted from revenue will be greater thereby rendering the profit sharing pool smaller BUT, that is a-okay with me because I would prefer a 1:1 distribution of money on the 15th and 30th each and every month rather than relying on a one-time partial (i.e., 20% or 23% or some percentage around there but certainly not 100%) distribution on Valentine's Day. This way, you get paid industry leading wages at 100 % and then you get paid a nice bonus on Valentine's Day if/when there is a profit to be had. Unlike some here who have only seen sunshine and roses in their Delta career (BobZ it would seem), I have been here long enough to see the "airline cycle" (which I guess equates to Black Swans....) and even experienced Joe Kolschack's self-described "interim career deviation" with 1,300 other pilots so yeah, I am a little bit jaded. Pay me now and if there is $$ left over, pay me some profit-sharing. I expect the pay on the 15th and 30th. I do not expect/plan on/rely upon a distribution on the 14th of February. |
Taking away PS is a Pandora's box the company doesn't want to open. When you roll it into rates, it goes unseen. However, keep it separate and have that carrot (on 14FEB) and people see it as a reward for helping the company. Take away that reward and what is the incentive to single-engine taxi, wait to turn on the APU or hurry to turn it off, etc... My guess is it wouldn't take long for the company to see impact of getting rid of PS.
Keep PS decoupled from pay. Don't touch PS, for the benefit of the employees and the company. |
Please refute all my numbers Mantooth, Sailing, Winnie the Pooh.
How many more Delta pilots would we need if we did 100% of the DCI flying? How many more Delta pilots would we need if we ended PBS tomorrow? How many more Delta pilots if we had SWA trips touching vacation? How many more Delta pilots if we had :54 minute TFP? 6.5 TFP reserve day? 6.5 TFP training day? These guys love to say I am wrong, but notice they will not answer any of these questions. And they will never use their real names. Jerry Fielding |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 2193714)
How many more Delta pilots would we need if we did 100% of the DCI flying?
How many more Delta pilots would we need if we ended PBS tomorrow? How many more Delta pilots if we had SWA trips touching vacation? How many more Delta pilots if we had :54 minute TFP? 6.5 TFP reserve day? 6.5 TFP training day? |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 2193714)
Please refute all my numbers Mantooth, Sailing, Winnie the Pooh.
How many more Delta pilots would we need if we did 100% of the DCI flying? How many more Delta pilots would we need if we ended PBS tomorrow? How many more Delta pilots if we had SWA trips touching vacation? How many more Delta pilots if we had :54 minute TFP? 6.5 TFP reserve day? 6.5 TFP training day? These guys love to say I am wrong, but notice they will not answer any of these questions. And they will never use their real names. Jerry Fielding
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 2192807)
I make fun of sailingfun for bad data a lot.... but holy crap, you have set a new record of just absurdity.
Originally Posted by Flytolive
(Post 2193719)
Is it nice in fantasyland?
How many pilots are at the outsourced Delta Connection Carriers that Southwest doesn't allow to be outsourced? |
Originally Posted by 404yxl
(Post 2193731)
Where is he wrong?
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Originally Posted by Flytolive
(Post 2193749)
By pretending Southwest is a hub and spoke, global network carrier and that all previously outsource feeder flying could be mainlined in one contract.
So again, how many pilots are at the outsourced Delta Connection Carriers that Southwest doesn't allow to be outsourced? There is no law required 50-76 set aircraft to be outsourced. |
Originally Posted by 404yxl
(Post 2193772)
There is no law required 50-76 set aircraft to be outsourced.
Maybe in Fantasyland apples are oranges. |
Originally Posted by FL370esq
(Post 2193694)
Unlike some here who have only seen sunshine and roses in their Delta career (BobZ it would seem), I have been here long enough to see the "airline cycle" (which I guess equates to Black Swans....) . Scoop |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 2193672)
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS. Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots. :54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots. 6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots. At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip. Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45. |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 2193672)
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS. Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots. :54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots. 6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots. At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip. Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45. |
Originally Posted by BobZ
(Post 2193575)
well....we have it on expert economic authority black swans are imminent.....so its only prudent to set ps value at zero....and base our discussions entirely on tangible compensation.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does. |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 2193672)
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
You are right.. sorta. If we could instantly in house the DCI flying (only way I see as possible would be to buy them all and staple them). We'd need a few less total pilots than DCI currently uses. Because we wouldn't want their rates and once we applied our rates DL would likely cut some of the flying. And we'd have the ability to bid 50 seater Capt.. any takers? International isn't that easy. Some of our flying is enabled by the international feed and wouldn't otherwise exist. Some of our gate/slot access over the years has been enabled by the JVs. We don't have a decent partner in Japan: how is that working? A few years ago we had zero access to LHR. Neither AMR nor UAL does all their own international flying. You want to know the key? Better OD cities and better partners: that is my opinion and I'm right. I agree our scope protections should be better with stiff penalties. No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS. OK...apples to apples? Does SWA use 15% more pilots pr hour than DL? No way. I can't get there. A computer program can easily manipulate the available trips to build the minimum number of lines: Its just a math/sorting problem. 15% no posible way. Talk QOL. Senior would not like going back to lines. People who bid RLL and low time or stack their months to allow WS/GS/mini vacation would have less ability to do so. Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots. I agree, 2000 maybe but I would guess closer to 1000. Not everyone could bid the line that touches 2 6 day trips... because with a line system the computer knows vacations happen and trys to limit those opportunities. However, most could touch something on at least one side of the vaca (some couldn't touch anything). I know. I've been there. 2000 maybe. :54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots. Please explain this. Perhaps I don't know how it works, but mostly wouldn't our small number of short time trips be paid more? Probably cap out sooner and need a small number of additional bodies. 6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots. ?Again: 1200? 6.5 TFP is about 5.7 hours vs proposed 4 hrs. So, ball parking: 14,000 pilots get an extra 3.4 hrs every 9 months. 3.4 X 14000 = 47,600 hrs divided by 9 = 5289 hrs/month div by 80 hr month and I get 66.11 pilots flying 80 hr months. Where do the 1134 others come from. As for the reserve.. SWA's all short call all the time would cut manning requirements and GS/WS availability by a lot. So, wouldn't we just primarily get paid more for training? I'm all for more. At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip. I can't get to that number. Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45. |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 2193672)
SWA scope. All Delta regional flying returned to mainline. 5000 pilots. No JV. We do all our international flying.
No PBS. 15% more pilots. 2000 additional pilots. Not saying we should drop PBS, just comparing apples to apples. SWA has no PBS. Trips touching vacation at SWA. More than double our vacation. 2000 more pilots. :54 minutes TFP. 800 more Delta pilots. 6.5 TFP for training day and reserve day. 1200 more Delta pilots. At least 3500 more Delta captains if we had the SWA aip. Imagine your domestic quality of life if we had 3 day trips worth 22 hours vs our 15:45. |
Originally Posted by OldFlyGuy
(Post 2193852)
I agree with this final bit, but its probably just easier for the SWA system to build 7 hour domestic days than it is for a hub system. I don't think our system deliberately makes people sit around, but some are just going to have to sit around in a complex hub and spoke system. Company is maximizing connections and revenue at the expense of our sit around and we should be compensated. But... if we did build 7 hr domestic days on all trips... wouldn't we need a whole lot fewer pilots? From my perspective, If I were flying domestic I'd prefer to work SWA's route system: cram the flying in and get it done. I can agree on that. OFG
When the aircraft is powered on, someone has to be in the cockpit at all times. Only one pilot may leave the plane when its on the ground with the power on to the cockpit. |
Originally Posted by FL370esq
(Post 2193841)
No one said to set PS at zero but it is clearly a variable out of our control. If we turn a profit, great, if not, well...we should still have industry leading pay after these negotiations. Why (and how) do we have to place value on a variable? It should be a disbursement over and above to compensate and motivate for windfalls.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does. |
Originally Posted by FL370esq
(Post 2193841)
No one said to set PS at zero but it is clearly a variable out of our control. If we turn a profit, great, if not, well...we should still have industry leading pay after these negotiations. Why (and how) do we have to place value on a variable? It should be a disbursement over and above to compensate and motivate for windfalls.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does. PS is the return on the investment we made to acquire an ownership stake in the enterprise. sometimes it will be there....and sometimes not. in the meantime we all have to pay the light bill every month.....so our assessment of equitable compensation should focus and be based on the 'tangible' compensation components of our working agreement. |
Great point BobZ...Industry standard pay should be achieved without blinking an eye, just because Delta is in the game. Any "unlocking" value should be further rewarded with tangible gets. As to PS, how much does it pay when there is no P? I'm with you, pay the bills based on tangibles. If the P is there, everyone benefits, and I'll use that money to buy the next toy...maybe a high performance wake board boat!
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Originally Posted by Tanker1497
(Post 2194408)
Great point BobZ...Industry standard pay should be achieved without blinking an eye, just because Delta is in the game. Any "unlocking" value should be further rewarded with tangible gets. As to PS, how much does it pay when there is no P? I'm with you, pay the bills based on tangibles. If the P is there, everyone benefits, and I'll use that money to buy the next toy...maybe a high performance wake board boat!
in good years the dividend check shows up in feb.....in bad....it wont. and if the business folds? well that is that. in the meantime? we have a day job....and wondering if the boss pays us fairly for making widgets .....is an entirely different calculation |
Originally Posted by FL370esq
(Post 2193841)
No one said to set PS at zero but it is clearly a variable out of our control. If we turn a profit, great, if not, well...we should still have industry leading pay after these negotiations. Why (and how) do we have to place value on a variable? It should be a disbursement over and above to compensate and motivate for windfalls.
This is a cyclic industry with huge variables. Oil, weather, IT meltdowns, stupid management decisions...any and all of which can affect the profit margin. Hopefully we had our one and only "Black Swan" event on 9/11 but I still believe in the business cycle and it isn't always going to be upward. Not sure when it comes down but it will correct itself. It always does. The "black swan" will come and Delta is best positioned to grab it by the neck. We already have. $4 billion lost on fuel and posted never before seen profits. Pension fund is projected to be a net gainer. Debt levels are at record lows, and bond ratings are investment grade only 9 years removed from bankruptcy. United and American are vulnerable with debt and little diversification. We don't need to out run the bear, just the other runners. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d..._8k-ex9901.htm |
I think Flytolive is meant to be read as fly to live but I keep seeing it as flight olive.
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Originally Posted by cstudent
(Post 2194746)
I think Flytolive is meant to be read as fly to live but I keep seeing it as flight olive.
I keep seeing SinkR8 and can't help thinking of that thing in the kitchen sink....SINKERATOR!:D |
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