Yep, that's what we are all saying. Right.

You lost me. This is my quote. You want me to acknowledge that I agree with my post. Why yes I wholeheartedly acknowledge. :D

Of course the shoe fits on both sides - that is why I was originally asked to be a MOD because my views were very centrist and I at times agreed or disagreed with posters on either end of the spectrum.

See post # 3 from the Observations/Questions from an outsider thread and get back to me.

Scoop

I don't see it that way. It's more like giving up part of PS for a pay increase is an undesirable situation.
Guys are tired of concessions to fund anything.

The company can propose to take PS anytime .. they'd just need to compensate the loss. Around 40-45% pay increase will swing the vote.

Who does he fly for?

I don't think it has been mentioned yet, but profit sharing is a way (the only way?) Delta pilots are compensated from the current outsourcing scheme we have today. If our contract allows JV's, Codeshares, Rj's, etc., then this is a way we get paid for that.

In addition, if Delta ever gets into a bankruptcy situation (I know, not likely right now, but never say never) profit sharing should be an easy "keep" for the pilots since per definition there is no cost unless there is profit.

So put me down as a no for a PS trade.

Mantooth??????

God? I think.

To answer the OP, in theory it would always be best to trade the lower part of PS for fixed pay, ***as long as upside protection is retained***. If not, you'd have to agree on some really, really high premium for giving up the upside, which would be based on speculation.

For better or worse, I think we've decided as a group we want to keep more PS. The company is printing money, and we want to be near the printer output. We're essentially all speculating on Delta's performance, and we're convinced numbers are going to stay high. Psychologically, we're hanging on to a winner, and it's sometimes very high to know when to sell a winning investment.

In the eventuality something goes wrong in the industry, and the value of PS decreases, we will not able to walk back our love for PS fast enough, and we'll be cursing the guys that got it for us, just like we cursed them when they first got it for us.

For my part, I'm OK with a large PS component. My wife and I just were updating our budget, and I'm assuming no raises this year or next, and I'm counting on about 1/2 of my current PS over the next few years. What are you guys assuming? I think someone on APC has PS approaching 50% of pay next year. Of course, that someone had Richard needing a deal last year.

Doubt it!

Humanist.

Probably the "other" guy!

Just sayin'.

I assume $0 profit sharing. I treat it as all "at risk" until the feb 14th deposit. And I'm ok with that. Profit when times are good and when times are not as good, that's just the nature of profit sharing.

That being said, I have heard numbers in the +\-27% range. The power outage may have changed things up a bit though.

The downside of trading PS for payrates has been explained to you several times, but it seems you have not yet grasped why it is bad. Here is a real world example of why it is bad.

IF we would have kept PS in C2012 instead of trading it for pay rates, our current hourly rate would be EXACTLY the same as it is today because of 3B4 and our PS would be HIGHER. I am pleased our negotiation team understands this concept and isn't selling PS for pay rates.

Exactly. In other words, we gave it away for nothing!

Longcall, can you explain this to me? Mine's not lost. I'm still getting the pay. What are you talking about?

This isn't true. Our pay rates would be 2% lower because we wouldn't have done the conversion. We also may not have gotten the 3B4 raises because the raise is the lesser of the weighted average of United and American 757 rate or the company raise to the non-contracts. You have to answer what the weighted average of American and United is before you can make this statement.

If we were better paid, which I believe we were, you are totally wrong.

In other words, you missed the "lesser" in Section 3.B.4. Oops.

We are negotiating now, among other things for payrates we want. Our ask is compared to our peer's payrates. We are going to get a contract based on our peer's payrates.

We are not going to get our peer's rates plus a few extra percent because we sold some PS to get our current rates. We are just going to get their rates plus or minus.

So every time you sell PS for payrates, you lose that money the next contract negotiating cycle. You get the extra pay for the couple of years in between contracts but the next time you negotiate new rates, that PS given away is lost.

So, yes you are losing the PS you sold for payrates in C2012.