Would You?
 

If management came to you tomorrow and asked if you wanted to take $10 an hour of a pay rate and convert it into an equivalent profit-sharing percentage, what would you say? Unless you were insane, you'd tell them to pound sand. The pay rate is far more secure and is delivered every two weeks.

So why is there such outcry when I support doing the opposite?

And, to be very clear, I do not support "trading" it for higher pay. Get the best rates we possibly can, and then (only then) try to convert some defined PS percentage into a higher pay rate on top of what was negotiated, leaving the upper end of PS intact so we can share in the bounty if Delta continues to prosper.

To be clear, I know that this is a moot point. PS is somehow a sacred cow now, even though DALPA was ridiculed when they negotiated it.

Walk me through the next cycle of negotiations following your scenario. At that point, my pay rates would be significantly above the industry. My PS might be industry average.

I could agree to this. Unfortunately they didn't think of this last year. Last year's TA had the PS "monetized" into a "there's now way you won't come out ahead under any scenario" in year 2 and muddying the waters.

I'd be fine with the scenario you just laid out. But then our payrates would be so far above UAL/AA that we'd have a target on our backs.

Sure, Ted. Valid question.

In any negotiation (like today's), Delta is not going to agree to pay us drastically above the market in total compensation (rates, work rules, PS, retirement, etc.). Further, the NMB is going to factor all of those things when they determine the "zone of reasonableness."

It's almost as if we negotiate a big pie with the company, and we get to decide how to slice it up. The size of the pie will stay the same regardless of how we label the slices.

The idea that PS payments are somehow hidden is just not realistic. The current negotiations prove that.

But that's not what they are trying to do is it? Let's negotiate our pay rate without PS being in play and see how that looks.

That's what we're doing. I just wish we'd take the next step after that.

Apparently, however, that makes me a sellout.

I'll trade PS quid pro quo for industry- leading vacation and training pay and credit (or vacation accrual). Base it on this year's profit sharing payment. I don't think I even care if vacation is enhanced with pay/credit, a number of weeks added, or a mixture. Any weeks added need to be added identically to all longevity tiers. I'll accept voluntary sell-back of vacation over 4 weeks. Any remaining PS after the swap remains pensionable

Napkin math makes it look like converting all of our PS to vacation would be 11 extra weeks if they didn't increase credit and value.

Do all that, match UAL rates, band similar to UAL (CS100 and 717 to 88, 320 to 73N and 321 to 757/767), allow self-verification, and I think I'm a YES!

I'll buy that. Any way we can convert "maybe" compensation to "definitely" compensation (in whatever form) is fine with me.

I don't support moving money from one section of the contract to another. Let's work on each section and improve it, not move money from one to another.

Where would you draw the line? Eliminate hotels for another $25/hr? Skip per diem for $5/hr?

I argue that the company wants, and could possible need, industry standard pay. The rest of our contract they'd happily gut.

The OP has been at this lately like it's his/her full time job.

Mantooth, the AIP's need to go away. Pay us industry leading. Give us better retirement and vacation and we will have a deal. We are not going to give up the farm just to get better pay rates.
I think the 12 strong MEC guys need to get rid of JM and the NC. Start over.

Where is that like button?................

Seems to me they already own this process. so they cannot control JM and the NC? Interesting. What makes you think they can install someone they CAN control, and what makes you think that someone that can be 'controlled' by a group of 12 is a good thing?

The strong 12, eh? It's that black and white?

Perhaps you should reexamine it deeper and realize that it's not so black and white as some stupid monkier like the "strong 12" or something similar.

Your right they do own it. They know it is out of control and not going the way the want it. They need to make a change to what has been happening and start fresh. Any TA that has these AIP's in it is going to get voted down.

The way THEY want it?

THEY????

So scrap the whole thing and start over?

Kiss retro bye bye.

Or can we say no until the company gives that to us?

Now I see why Jerry posts like this.

Who said anything about retro going bye bye. The AIP's will go bye bye. The majority of the pilot group here will not give up work rules for pay rates.

I said it. We are too far along in this process to go out and get professional negotiators :rolleyes:, fire e'reybody in the MEC/NC and start over. Some think that doing all that is going to magically make management start quaking in their boots and knuckle under because we are serious. That is laughable. Go through all that and retro is g....o...n....e.... Oh but we will say no until they pay it, right?

Do you seriously think management's Park Avenue lawyers are afraid of hired guns? Seriously? What on earth do you think they would bring to the party besides a huge bill for their services? I've seen this movie now at every negotiations and it is always the same thing.

Your missing the point. We will not have these AIP's. We will not give up work rules for a pay raise. You seem to just be all about the money.
Thats fine, you have your vote. Any TA that has these AIP's in it will get voted down. I think the 12 MEC guys realize this now.

DALPA has moved 7% lower on pay rates and the company has moved up 1%?

Oh? And you know this how? This is all just your opinion hoss. Nothing more. You don't like them, and that's fine, but it is very presumptive to believe that a majority of guys care as much as you about some of them. And it is ironic that you try to throw the money thing in my face since it was you in the last 2 hours that has been talking about being bought off of your trips.

Naaaaaaah.

That's not a money thing.

Not at all.:rolleyes:

No, its a QOL thing.

lets talk money
DALPA has moved 7% lower on pay rates and the company has moved up 1%?

DALPA position 22 Dec 2015 22% effective January 1, 2016 7% effective January 1, 2017 7% effective January 1, 2018 DALPA position 10 Sep 2016 19% on 1/1/16 5% on 1/1/17 5% on 1/1/18 Company's position 08 Jul 2016 15.5 % DOS 3% on 1/1/17 3% on 1/1/18 3% on 1/1/19 Company's position 10 Sep 2016 16.5% on DOS 3% on 1/1/17 3% on 1/1/18 3% on 1/1/19 So, DALPA has moved 7% lower on pay rates and the company has moved up 1%?

Yeah, sure it is. OK then change the AIP to read that if you are bought off you don't get paid for anything extra if you pick up a trip over the days of the LCA trip. Still a QOL thing?

Sick AIP was put up for tweaking. The 12 (if you want to simplify it so much to that) are ok with the AIPs generally. So are most others as long as the company pays up in pay and QOL gains otherwise.

Now that Bond would be giving up work rules for pay. We are not going to give up QOL options for pay.
I get bought off and but a GS in or a just stay home. That is up to me.
QOL. Get it.
The last TA DALPA tried to sell us on the LCA concession that it would only affect 1% of the pilot group. I set 50% in base and can get bougth off all the time.

So it IS about the money. Got it.

See

On these boards, it is NOT about the money.

It is about the QOL.

Take the money out

And it suddenly becomes money vs QOL

Got it?

We are going to get the money. Its how you get you do it. We don't need to give up the farm to do it. Get it.
You leave in 5 years or sooner. The rest of us will be here with the new crappy work rules. Then the economy goes and we lose the pay and are stuck with the .... work rules. Get it.
Take care Bond, I'm going to go and enjoy my day while Im on SC.

With full retro and 3B4, the pilots will get paid one way or another. No need to sell any work rules or scope, or profit sharing. 3B4 is on payrates, as long as the line on profit sharing is held, we win.

The company will have huge issues hiring eventually the longer this drags out.

This ^^^^

And back to the original post.. Dude how dense are you? If we convert PS to pay rates, it is lost the next contract cycle. Just like the C2012 conversion. Gone.

Actually, I think that's a great idea. That helps put more pilots on property and functions like a paid vacation. Granted I don't think either side would entertain the idea but more time off is a good thing. Sell it back at a premium or pickup something outside the footprint for more cash. What would that do for staffing going into the retirement crush? Create leverage for the next contract.

I think the happy medium would be to make anything picked up at straight pay only. I was just throwing the BS flag on his "QOL" claim.

I don't even know where to start on this. Good Lord.

You must have not gone to the same college Tom Brielmann didn't go to.

It's not gone, it's in our pockets. And we would bargain off those rates in the next contract.

Forget it. Math and risk analysis is obviously hard.

You guys should consider converting all of our pay to profit sharing.

You are dense. The PS is gone. Vanished in the wind. The pay rates are from 3b4. The PS trade lossed us money!

Pay rates will never be considerably greater than the industry average, no matter how you try to get them there. Preserving profit sharing for the future keeps the percentage gains higher, we are above the 20% threshold and any additional profits will be 20% ours. Converting a dollar is not securing it, it is limiting its ability to grow.

The trade you propose will always remove profit sharing potential and lock that dollar value. Inflation will inflate everything except your pay rate. The outsourcing capture is minimized every time we reduce profit sharing.

3B4 will drive us to industry average for years to come without giving up any profit sharing. I would love to get there sooner but that is the destination not anything significantly above that.

Keep throwing that flag, you are making me think about it in a different way. For FOs OE trip drops will be a significant portion of compensation or QOL (as they choose) going forward. There will be a lot of OE in the future. The fact that they have a choice now is significant. The company sees it as a productivity item so I don't see much changing with it.

I'll just leave this right here.

Got this off Chit Chat. This is funny
"I sure hope they show up for picketing in a visible gesture of support for the adopted MEC strategy.

Surely with all the emails and phone calls of support -- the MC/MEC/LECs claim exist -- they ought to be able to contact them quickly and easily fill the picketing lines to capacity.

Maybe they'll even carry signs:

"I ❤️ VEBA"
"No base like a virtual base"
"Sick Leave is for criminals"
"More power to the schedulers"
"MGT has needs too!"

Good luck from the inconsequential vocal/active minority!"
RH

You think it's not??