I asked a similar question about 5 posts up. The guy is online, but will not answer you. Hmmm.:rolleyes:

He does that all the time. I'm used to it. :D

Should have stopped there.
Can't help you with the rest. Maybe the C44 Capt reps can.

So now it's recall the 9, and keep the 10. Gotcha, no wonder this clown show persists; they feed off their constituents mindset

I'm just catching up here. Are they talking about recalling the ATL FO reps because they voted FOR BB?

That's what it looks like.

A whole platoon of DALPA lifers are about to get thrown overboard.
And there aren't enough lifeboats up in Herndon.
That's the real reason for all the butthurt.

Johnson and Kern will probably be recalled at the meeting. All those lifers always show up. And they bring proxies.
But when the whole membership gets to vote electronically, Johnson and Kern will win 70-30.

About time...."Drain the Swamp"!

Wow. Unbelievable.

No. The NWA MEC was (Dave?) Stevens.

Bartels is a blow-hard, hot air balloon. His only motivation is for Pres. of ALPA-National and his modus operandi is to be the loudest speaker in the room, thereby making people think he's the smartest.

If he would've been our Chairman for this negotiation vs. Malone, it would've been YEARS before we saw a deal from the Company.... YEARS.

All it takes is one of the C44 members in good standing to request. S De had it on the agenda. No word yet on which member requested the recall. I believe that will be revealed.

"...if the 12 had not put their feet down?"


You're not the only one trotting out this flawed logic. You cannot have it both ways.

On August 2nd, Malone informed the MEC that he was stuck, and needed re-direction. On August 12th, the Delusional Dozen decided to halt deliberations and issue a manifesto through Roger Goodwin. These twelve, led by Bill Bartels, decided to double down and engage in regressive bargaining.

It. Didn't. Work. The regressive direction resulted in the NMB moving on to other cases with higher probabilities of success. See Negotiator's Notepad 16-13. Remember "no further meetings are scheduled at this time?" We would still be there, and the comprehensive proposals exchanged on August 2nd would still be out there for everyone to see, and the answer would still be hanging somewhere in the middle, as our new PWA clearly demonstrates.

We spent three weeks looking over this cliff, our negotiators' hands tied behind their backs, and the banner towing over empty baseball stadiums notwithstanding, and the membership figured out that Bill Bartels wasn't taking his foot off the gas. They started to contact their reps, wondering what the hell was wrong with them.

The MEC spent the third week of September taking a long look at the polling data. It became clear to Bill that he was getting into unpopular territory with the membership. Everyone knew that the resolution was sitting somewhere in the middle ground between the proposals, and everyone knew that about 82 percent of the membership wanted a solid deal more than they wanted to go down the alternate path. Bill knew it too, and so the "twelve" turned out to be maybe five.

Their "tough stance" turned out to be nothing when the membership put a laser dot on them. They gave Malone what he needed to cut a deal, and salvaged their political ambitions for another day.

Proving the point, when you tap the brakes the back seat gets immediately involved. :eek:

How is this bad? The RJs being discussed vanished, profit sharing was reaffirmed, VEBAs were jettisoned and sick got the hospitalization verification. The focused narrowed and the deal became clearer.

During this time management reevaluated also and the must have RJs went from 1/2 to none. Being put on notice focused both sides.

Rube...are you going to organize the "Back to the Line" party? I'd like to come and celebrate!

......and profit sharing, scope, and a bit more pay were saved, with full retro. We got time value of the givebacks. IOW, Bill found his line in the sand with his people. EXACTLY how the process should work, when you actually let the process unfold and show a little game face

BTW, that "another day" was yesterday. Nothing lost and who knows what else was gained and saved, hence your crow post. Now the sour grapes start, with the recall BS in ATL and MSP, and the utterly shameful behavior of an EA and the Comm chair. Utterly shameful.

The sun will rise again tomorrow, crow, as it did today. The recall card has been overplayed and lost its effectiveness. I'm out of this discussion. Time to move forward, which I was going to do regardless of the outcome. Suggest everyone enjoy their raise, and their upcoming raise. Happy holidays all!!!!

EA and Comm Chair behavior??

It's a shame that a guy with the leadership of Malone gets kicked to the curb. He did a great service to his fellow pilots bringing the wide range of opinions together to produce a nice contract. Don't know anything about Bartels but I not interested in going back to the NW style of management-pilot relations. Why doesn't the entire group vote for the MEC?

I like JM and think he did a descent job all things considered. But when you campaign on leaving after a TA and you get a successful TA, its time to leave. The last thing we need are more Moaks who muddy the waters saying they have no plans to run for national at this time and then immediately do it.

JM served the pilots, I respect him for it, and its time he go back to the line.

I agree about the campaign but a guy can change his mind and if he's doing a great job it's in our interest to have him there. As far as national, I see it as a good thing having a DL guy there. Seems to me he's paying the price for doing what 80+ percent of the membership wanted. Seeing past the intense email spamming campaign by the few and getting a good deal for the rest of us. The guys most susceptible to the spam campaign are now in charge.

What's this NW style of management - pilot relations you speak of?

Bad blood on both sides almost at every turn it seemed to me. Double furlough for many of my generation. Lack of working together on anything. Senior guys get all the candy. I know it takes two to tango but it's not something I want to see in my career again. Saw a lot of that mindset in some of the guys who frequent this board in the TA discussion.

"The last thing we need are more Moaks"? That's quite funny, considering the fact that few knew Moak.... until he ran for MEC Chair... against John Malone. You can probably classify JM many ways, but as a "Moakie" probably not.

If they did Malone would likely get 82% of the votes. Just kidding. Not unless it included another 30% pay raise. But he would get a clear majority of the votes. The way it works now it's like the Senate deciding who the President will be. Too much political insider back stabbing going on as a result. As always.

BB was hired a month before me. I met him when we were 757 FO's and by no means senior. He was doing ALPA work then and he rode our jumpseat to San Diego, right after his house burned down -- and I mean right after. He talked to us about union stuff and our pilot group the whole flight.

Senior guys get all the candy was not the NWA-ALPA style when we got rid of the B scale in 1998. We also negotiated pay raises a few years after 9/11 when the company was losing money.


The NWA style of negotiating wasn't what many people make it out to be. Most of the angst came from management and us resisting, that's all. :)


Give the guy a chance. Let's see what happens. :D

That is utter nonsense. The people "in the back seat" revolted against the manifesto delivered by Roger Goodwin. You don't get to claim that your horrible, no good, very bad idea to burn the place down somehow resulted in a businesslike outcome.

Bill can get a consensus on the MEC (even if they all voted for themselves, as you see), but his skill set runs smack against a wall when the task involves an actual decision with accountability afterwards. You can kiss the mid-contract opportunities goodbye for a while, he doesn't know how to chase those while keeping his legion of backstabbers happy.

The TA vote shows it plain and simple. 82 percent of the Delta pilots supported the deal and the means by which we achieved it. The twelve had NOTHING to do with that effort, and had to be frightened into doing it by their own electorates. They have no standing anymore.

You know when its time to act when the constituents compel you to act. AIPs are a perfect example. They were modified after being chiseled in stone. Why?, the constituents compelled action. TA1 failed and those responsible where ridden out on a rail. Why?, the constituents compelled action. That's how you know the time and the deal are right.

Your desire to put it in a box and wrap it in a bow neatly, so as to be "business like" is your flaw. You've never worn two different socks or folded a map wrong and just put it away, and left it be, have you? If a picture on the wall is a little a skew or something is left unfini

Did four reps just vote themselves into a cushy good deal? Talk about I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine. I'm hearing that another rep who voted for these four is getting a full time gig as well. Lots of vote trading for jobs.

Very interesting debrief from a respected rep on CC. He voted for the TA, but against JM. His thoughts on the job he did are a very eye opening read. Based on the sausage making process, I'm not surprised they showed him the door.

Will said rep post it here as well?

It was a public update... so here it is:

MOUNTAIN TIMES

Members of Council 81,

Yesterday, MEC officer elections were held and Captain Bill Bartels was elected to replace Captain John Malone as the MEC chairman.

I voted for Captain Bartels, while Nate voted for Captain Malone. It was a difficult decision, but one that I feel was correct and necessary. My vote was based on several factors:

* I have a fiduciary responsibility in representing you. My resolve to meet that responsibility was continuously challenged by an administration that on many occasions failed to provide me requested information to base decisions on.

* We (the LEC reps) were told to use polling data until it didn’t align with the narrative coming from the administration and the Negotiating Committee.

* Moves were made during negotiations that were outside the direction of the MEC body. When we attempted to stop the “bleeding,” we were accused of micromanaging. When we gave leeway, we surrendered contract language.

* We were told that the AIPs were not final, but when they didn’t meet your needs, as evidenced by polling, we were told we couldn’t change them.

* I’ll describe John’s leadership style as autocratic. The MEC chairman, by Policy Manual, works for the MEC. I felt that the process leading up to the TA was more of a manipulation to get us where the chairman thought we should go.

The input I have received from pilots post-ratification overwhelmingly support the theory that although the TA was voted in by a margin of 82 percent, that percentage does not mean that all those pilots agree with the way we came about getting a TA. Many feel as if there was absolutely no viable alternative and voted accordingly. My decision to support a change of leadership was based on my belief that a more involved MEC is necessary. A majority of MEC representatives came to the same conclusion. This was not a decision I took lightly. I ask that you support Captain Bartels and his team. We will move forward conducting your business.

Fraternally,
Mike Poggi
Chairman, Capt Rep

I got there in 99 and that was my opinion. Rough time to be in the industry overall for sure. I'll give him a chance and hope you're right. Cheers.

I don't know John Malone, and I don't know Bill Bartels, but I know Mike Poggi.

If he says it, it's good enough for me. I'll trust Mike Poggi's word any day of the week.

And yet we barely got across the finish line to get the TA. I don't care how we got here. The choice was binary: a TA or no TA. The fact that Malone got us there was because of his leadership. Without him there we would have floundered. It's not supposed to be pretty and as long as I've been here it never has been.

If Poggi and others on the MEC felt manipulated, and were, it was because if they weren't we'd be looking at no TA and feeling like AMR. Poggi and the others were played like a fiddle because they had to be. And now the maestro has been sacrificed by some fiddlers who got outmatched. It happens sometimes.

So spare us the the sad tale of sausage making. All most people care about was the final outcome: a successful TA.

One thing I know about Poggi is that he stands up for what he believes is right and doesn't play political BS games.

I'm curious to know Nate's reasoning- I met him back when the "12" thing was going on, and he is very very sharp. You guys have some good ones out in SLC...

The first word in Northwest was NO

agree completely

Ahhh, you don't know??? What, like 10 times more grievances as a union than DALPA had at the merger.

Well I never! Just because he was actually there in the midst of the melodrama, he thinks he can contradict S-fun and all the anti-12 posts we've seen in this thread?

Honest assessment of the administration ignoring the pilot majority (for the 'umpteenth' time in my career) and voting his conscience? The nerve of some people.

(At least one MEC member knows how dalpa was intended to work.)

10 times more. That would be an example of a dysfunctional mgt or aggressive representation?

I suppose if a management got all it's 'gatekeeper issues' put in the management-pilot agreement... grievances would be kept to a minimum.

What are our grievances looking like since the merger?