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Do Endeavor pilots know how to hand fly?

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Do Endeavor pilots know how to hand fly?

Old 10-29-2019, 06:53 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by theUpsideDown View Post
Yeah, American pilots have a very high comfort level hand flying as compared to the rest of the planet's airline pilots. That's why we have a very low go around rate, and a very high level of "saving it". The FAA in your study was talking about the pilot shutting his brain off when the autopilot came on and being terrible at monitoring it. But the newest media spectacle has been the FAA submitting to ICAO that some sort of hand flying program must start across the globe to get the rest of the pilots up to speed.

The FAA has even backed off 1000ft to stabilized approach or go around garbage because a couple airlines proved it was wrong headed . Until the approach gets below 500ft unstabilized, 97% of pilots can get the plane back in the right place before landing safely, which most of us who used to fly it the other way remember.

For instance, this might be before your time, the same year that study you quoted came out the dtw pilots had a fairly "standard" , non standard callout, of "flight director off set takeoff thrust". They'd hit their stupid TOGA buttons 1-8 times because most 200pilots had no idea what those buttons really did then remove the FD. They'd turn it back on above 10000 before engaging autopilot. Extremely common practice. So common FOQA finally put the smack down on the practice early 2016 when the FOQA guys finally caught the data for the FD was missing, in mid 2015 they started asking recurrent classes what the hell was going on with broken FDs (because they didn't naturally think pilots were shutting off everything). The excuse was, way back in 'Nam, Pinnacle used to make pilots shut off the FD from zero to 400ft due to a software glitch. Pilots liked it so much they just kept it off for takeoff and landing until many pilots just turned it on for autopilot use only. If the autopilot was like the DC9 a lot of 200 pilots would have left the FD off with the autopilot on.

American pilots and edv pilots hand fly a lot and there's guys like you who are telling peers to handfly even more. Our nation's culture is a hand flying culture. I'm guilty of it too, search my posts there should be one about, turn the auto off on the descent below 12000, and all the ways its better. Hand flying at multiple airspeeds and altitude level offs and trim settings and flying through the flap transitions. That's real flying. Take it from me, I spent the first 1000 plus hours hand flying the northeast with no auto pilot and no flight director, in a 19 seat airplane that, unlike the stupid rj, trimmed out correctly.

Flew 4 different airliners, CRJ is hands down the worst flying airplane autopilot on or off. Don't @ me. And I still think guys should hand fly it as much as I did anyway.
I was one of the dtw pilots who took off without the Fd. All I’m saying is that every pilot should be 100% comfortable flying an approach down to minimums in actual conditions with no FD. I’ve been here over 12 years and there’s been only 5 or 6 pilots that would fall into that category. Pinnacle Pete was definitely one of them.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by theUpsideDown View Post
From your ex fleet standards guy. I didn't say delta or edv were embracing it, but other companies proved it to the FAA and have changed their books.

It turned out the old guys gut reactions were right for once, I doubt itll break that way again soon.
Delta requires the aircraft configured at 1000 and stabilized at 500.
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
Delta requires the aircraft configured at 1000 and stabilized at 500.
When they said there was no indoc test I kinda just went back to drinking koolaid and free beer.
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kforekyle View Post
Sounds like someone got their feelings hurt. I like they way some of guys on here find a way to turn a discussion into a personal attack. Maybe your not 100% confident in your abilities.
Eh, I let the reader or anyone that has listened to him on a union call or anyone that has had to work with him or watch the way he treats FAs, pilots, volunteers, union lawyers or the company to decide how I'm doing with that analysis. While there's a few outliers, the overwhelming majority didn't enjoy his attitude. I certainly didn't enjoy deprogramming pilots from his wrong headed opinion on the contract.

If you wanna sing his praises good on ya, and good luck.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:01 PM
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"Off at 100 every time" was mentioned earlier, with a sneering tone, as lazy and skillless, but the "off at 1000" common here is basically the same. You take the plane fully configured with final power set, in trim, on the GS and localizer, with no flying left to do other than minor corrections to maintain the profile (likely with the FD on, anyway). This is what I see the vast majority of the time (from both seats), including on "visuals" on the clearest and calmest of days.

How often (and with what comfort) do you see people do things like:

- Level off at, and maintain, an altitude
- intercept a course
- change speed
- change flap setting

It's an interesting day when the things we did with barely 3 digits in our logbooks, to earn our instrument ratings (presumably, just the basic foundation to progress on later) are viewed as pretending to be Chuck Yeager. At the schoolhouse it's "don't be a hero" when you try to do anything outside the box-checking, yet they'll be perfectly happy to dispatch you in a plane with the AP deferred and where you'll be in those situations, for the first time, by yourself, in real life.
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by vessbot View Post
"Off at 100 every time" was mentioned earlier, with a sneering tone, as lazy and skillless, but the "off at 1000" common here is basically the same. You take the plane fully configured with final power set, in trim, on the GS and localizer, with no flying left to do other than minor corrections to maintain the profile (likely with the FD on, anyway). This is what I see the vast majority of the time (from both seats), including on "visuals" on the clearest and calmest of days.

How often (and with what comfort) do you see people do things like:

- Level off at, and maintain, an altitude
- intercept a course
- change speed
- change flap setting

It's an interesting day when the things we did with barely 3 digits in our logbooks, to earn our instrument ratings (presumably, just the basic foundation to progress on later) are viewed as pretending to be Chuck Yeager. At the schoolhouse it's "don't be a hero" when you try to do anything outside the box-checking, yet they'll be perfectly happy to dispatch you in a plane with the AP deferred and where you'll be in those situations, for the first time, by yourself, in real life.
Well said! Thank you.
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:50 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by ninerdriver View Post
Most are pretty good, actually. I'd say about 75% of the captains with whom I fly handfly on the way up to 10000' or so, then turn it off somewhere around 1000' on the way down, so they have practice at it.

There are definitely some outliers. The worst are the 600 on, 400 off pilots when they have to fly something other than an ILS. For every one of those, though, there's also another pilot who turns the FD off at 400' up and flies raw data like a champ.
You are kidding me right? Hand flying an uninterrupted climb builds zero skill. Hand fly a visual from 50 miles out. Through configuration changes. My airline encourages it.
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vessbot View Post
"Off at 100 every time" was mentioned earlier, with a sneering tone, as lazy and skillless, but the "off at 1000" common here is basically the same. You take the plane fully configured with final power set, in trim, on the GS and localizer, with no flying left to do other than minor corrections to maintain the profile (likely with the FD on, anyway). This is what I see the vast majority of the time (from both seats), including on "visuals" on the clearest and calmest of days.

How often (and with what comfort) do you see people do things like:

- Level off at, and maintain, an altitude
- intercept a course
- change speed
- change flap setting

It's an interesting day when the things we did with barely 3 digits in our logbooks, to earn our instrument ratings (presumably, just the basic foundation to progress on later) are viewed as pretending to be Chuck Yeager. At the schoolhouse it's "don't be a hero" when you try to do anything outside the box-checking, yet they'll be perfectly happy to dispatch you in a plane with the AP deferred and where you'll be in those situations, for the first time, by yourself, in real life.
As a guy who instructed those triple digit pilots and spoon fed them as FOs I'm good not idealizing the skill level they never really had. I think we all had fond memories of days where there was no autopilot but it was a lot cuter when they were good flying turboprop and we'd yaw damp on after takeoff and never turn the autopilot on from MEM to MLU or TUP because only sissys use the autopilot. You're RJ pilots, you're not in the right airplane to pretend you're hard core. The 1900 didn't even have autopilot. I'd bet between the 172 - Navajo and the 1900 - Saab I did more hand flying in those first 4000 hours than you'll do in the next two decades.

It's great to want to hand fly and I hope you're doing it smoothly but, idk, quit and go fly a turboprop for a couple years. You're never gonna get what you want flying RJs.

And as a guy who didn't hand fly as much as the Detroit guys I had twice getting into weather where the auto wouldn't stay on for turb, shooting one or two approaches through that garbage to a missed or two and diverting both times. Never mind Autopilot deferrals where somehow me and the FO did just fine. Honestly, what I saw when I left was a bunch of pilots hand flying constantly and couldn't come up with good judgment in scenario based questions if I spoon fed them. Hand flying is good, but make sure you're reading your FOM at least as much as you read the web boards and practice alternate and MX decision making as much as you can.

Truth is, flying is the easy part. More than 90% of ya are fine.
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by theUpsideDown View Post

Our problem is overwhelmingly we land u stabilized 99%ofthe time because we are so comfortable hand flying, and when the auto goes on we check the f out of monitoring autopilot duties.

Who is this referring to, Endeavor or Delta?
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy View Post
Who is this referring to, Endeavor or Delta?
Ugh, you still just skim don't you?

That is still referencing the study that American pilots aren't monitoring the automation.

That discussion really doesn't have a side for you to pick, but you can relay to everyone weird information about yourself that can only be categorized as "TMI" in your awkward way of drawing attention.
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