+1 for Dirty Dirt lol

Oh I know who you are now..."Mr. I am entitled to that left seat"....while I have sat in the right seat being a check airmen instructing and being a captain. All fun and games though for you though right?? You are sticking up for a bunch of people who have no business being in the left seat based purely on safety. You didn't screw me out of an upgrade( I'm too junior) I don't care about any of that. I'm sick of your white knight attitude both on here and airlinks. I can't wait to fly with you in NYC someday. I'll do my job and that's it, and I pray to god you are the 1% of colgan pukes I won't have to instruct or act as PIC, because I am sick and tired of it and I don't get paid enough to do it.

You realize this is a weak argument right?

Most Colgan CAs didn't have Mesaba guys giving them instruction / OE. So it's purely on Pinnacle LCAs who passed "deficient" airmen as to why we FOs might have to "CFI".

And no excuses for the company pushing LCAs to pass guys with lots of OE. Company pushing caused MKE.

Pinnacle pilots aren't any worse, and many times aren't any better than the guys from the other airlines we merged with.

I have flown with the OP as his FO, and he is as good or better than every other CA with whom I have shared a flight deck.

How anyone can stick up for the punitive nature of 9E "training" I will never understand.

Lol, you guys sound like Maverick and Ice Man fighting over who's the best pilot. Ten years from now you'll look back and see how foolish and juvenile your attitude is.

Exactly. You are 100% correct. It's ridiculous to think that any of us are better pilots just because we are original XJ, 9L, or 9E. This isn't a contest kids. The mission is to go to work for 1-5 days and get people safely from A to B.

I tell you what, tom11011, the most unprofessional behavior I've seen is pilots talking about fellow pilots in front of passengers and wondering aloud not if, but when, they are going to bend metal.

Be glad you don't work here. It's cringe inducing.

You are clueless if you think it is the legacy 9e check airmens fault, and have no idea how the current department operates. There is a reason original 9e never gave more than 50 hours of OE, and there is a reason why at least 3 FO"'s banned from upgrade there are now 900 captains.

Endeavor Interviews - READ
 

This thread could be a soap opera...so much drama!

Drama, ignorance and anatomy measuring contests. You were expecting more on this site? ;)

Colgan pilots can't fly an RJ!! RJ'S are some of the most difficult planes to fly out there!!

It isn't always the pilot candidates fault. Excessive amounts of OE can also be traced back to the training department. Ten years ago I remember hearing people from Pinnacle boasting that they had one of the highest failure rates in the industry like it was a good thing. To me the failure rate speaks volumes about the quality of the training department and their pilot selection process. Sure there are going to be some that don't make it, but the percentage should be relatively small.

When a legacy 9E check airman complains about having to do a written test for recurrent and the full oral for PCs (because he used to get the wink wink nudge nudge rides), and tries to start the APU with a deferred APU battery without following the MEL....

That's only one guy. I don't believe it is the pilot candidates. Our training department was terrible. It was punitive. It's a systematic failure to teach and train.

The difference between XJ training, and Pinnacle training is: At Mesaba, when you walk in for the PC, you have already passed, and need to try really hard to fail. Pinnacle is, when you walk in for the PC, you have already failed, and you need to try really hard to pass.

Additionally, the Pinnacle mindset is that the Mesaba mindset "keeps bad pilots flying". I have really enjoyed not being under the gun every 12 months. Why should we be able to perform to a high level for hundreds of hours but have the threat of failure for a 1 time box event of 2 hours PF per seat?

+1000 points for the improvement, "Mesaba-ization" of the training department. I love standardization. It's a huge change.

Are you trying to say the 9E schoolhouse didn't blow donkey balls and was actually good and functional?

I vote "blows donkey balls".

Where do you get this 50 hours of OE anyways?

You do KNOW that it was a MINIMUM value for many pilots that Pinnacle hired. I assume you know this since you know how the current department operates.

Contrary to this popular belief is actual data...from Dec-March, ALL failures during PCs were on the 900 which is primarily former Mesaba check airmen...only 4 in case you're wondering btw...now, back to your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories

Way to try to split hairs. You know perfectly well that the only reason behind it was to allow the 250 hour guys to upgrade quickly when we needed them, along with the mentor pilot thing.

Weird. I thought it was for all "Tier IV" candidates, < 1000 hours TT.

Why such a rush to fail guys out of seats?

I can't blame them for failing CA upgrade or taking forever on OE since the mentality is "show up to CA upgrade knowing everything."

Same reason I should be ****ed about the FO ATP debacle. "Know everything." Everything GP? Or everything [ insert guy who asked me how many wheels (including galley cart) on aircraft ]?

I am sure I am a better pilot because I know and was able to recite wiper rates (80 cyc/min or 125 cyc/min), or what kind of Halon is in the engine fire bottles (1301).

After I did mine, the company distributed a "study guide". After I did mine, it was a covered topic in ground school. Too little, too late.

I am not saying I want, or need to be spoon-fed, but the cost savings items here are ridiculous. Death by LMS once a year, and constant "know everything". How about emphasis topics?

Any idea how many guys failed or got loads of OE because of check airmen bias? My buddy got a 4 hour oral coming to 200 FO. I have never had an oral that long here. I have been yelled out inside and outside the sim. That has no place in a training environment.

Before we worry about high-time OE guys, let's make sure the training house is in order and trying to pinpoint the weaknesses of the candidates at hour 1, not hour 75...

I vote for blows donkey balls.

Seniority allows you to bid for upgrade but the training department should not be responsible to make sure that you do. If you show up for training unprepared and unmotivated the training department should expedite your return to the right seat. The training department should be a resource to help the candidate. Help but not do it for them. OE is tricky since sometimes deficiencies aren't properly uncovered and the pilot gets signed off prematurely. I am glad the planes are good and help the pilots do their job. If you would refuse a plane with no autopilot, flight director and FMS into LGA then you don't belong in the flight deck.

Last I checked, 250 hours is less than 1000 hours, which just proves you know exactly what I meant and just like to hear yourself whine and moan.

If you think you can identify all deficiencies a student might have in 1 hour, you have obviously never been an instructor in any capacity.

Exactly. That's it.

By the way, recurrent PCs should be a good gauge of your knowledge. But, when the first 5 years are spent asking fluff questions then subsequently taking a real oral, it's not. Why do you think so many people asked "is it a standard Pinnacle PC?"

This all started because you are butthurt about a guy who spent years volunteering for ALPA, transitioning successfully to CRJ200 CA. He isn't entitled. He earned it. We can't change the Bloch award. So, time to move on and be good at CRM instead of willfully making life hell for coworkers.

If you don't think there are systematic problems with old 9E training, or you think XJ and 9L guys have some sort of higher rate of failure or higher OE value, it's probably because you are biased, the LCAs are being Chatty Cathy's, or the training department is deficient.

But yeah, I just like to complain. That's a convenient catch-all.

The old scheduling committee guy is on airlink telling us that AQP means much higher failure rates than old Pinnacle PCs. Commander R, 900 sub captain, is posting stupid meme's about taking a PC before AQP debacle 2014.

Why can't people go to work without the sole intention of being a choad to "non-original" Pinnacle?

Well this is quite the blanket statement.

What's the weather? Are there any other MELs? What day of the trip is it? How many legs have you already done today? Is it day?Night? How long have you been on duty? Is the FO new? The captain?

No AP, FD, and FMS.....I'd consider a whole lot of stuff before accepting that acft.

As a matter of fact my first instinct is to say no.

That doesn't make me a bad pilot. It makes me smart. Like it or not being without those 3 pieces of equipment is simply not something we all do anymore.

Day 1 leg 1 at noon on a wednesday flying into CVG....Sure.

Day 5 leg 4 at 8pm with snow/ice into LGA....Nope.com

Couldn't have said it better!! Good post!

Stupid. My question would be why is that equipment not fixed? When was the last time you were on a mainline airplane and they were flying around with no FMS, no FD, and no AP? Just because you can do it doesn't mean it's smart.

My point was be responsible and don't allow your skills to erode to the point you can't find an airway or shoot a full approach. I run into plenty if guys that are fair weather certified only. Problem is that restriction is not on their license. I also take exception with the idea that people will counter the critique of their skills with "I DONT GET PAID ENOUGH TO STAY PROFFICIENT."

What the hell are you talking about? You love to bash so much you didn't even read/comprehend what I wrote. What ALPA guy am I butthurt about? I didn't even mention anything about anyone or anything ALPA or otherwise. And if you would actually READ my post, I said nothing about 9l or XJ pilots needing more IOE. I said more IOE was allowed once XJ took over. For all pilots, 9e included. Read before you put words in my mouth and imply I'm in a 9e vs XJ 9l pilot war.

I guess the guys who flew jetstreams and metroliners must have been super pilots.

Perhaps we could use an Avro story from a Mesaba geriatric to bring us all together. :D

If they are still here, clearly they weren't! :D

touche'
http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/atta...0&d=1353501196
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j...97585088925955

We just have to wait until they buy GoJets and Compass and merge their seniority lists with ours.

That will create solidarity!

The Avro was such a great plane to them because it enabled the regional lifer.

Hahaha... trying to roll a hand grenade in the room eh?

[QUOTE=vilcas;1622852]Seniority allows you to bid for upgrade but the training department should not be responsible to make sure that you do. If you show up for training unprepared and unmotivated the training department should expedite your return to the right seat. The training department should be a resource to help the candidate. Help but not do it for them. OE is tricky since sometimes deficiencies aren't properly uncovered and the pilot gets signed off prematurely. I am glad the planes are good and help the pilots do their job. If you would refuse a plane with no autopilot, flight director and FMS into LGA then you don't belong in the flight deck.[/QUOTE]

It's this unfortunate mentality that was common at Pinnacle that allowed management to get away with broken APU's in MEM in the middle of summer for the entire 10 days allowed by MEL all the time. There was NO excuse to allow that. It's DANGEROUS!!! Legal, yes. Dangerous, absolutely. Sadly this group overall has no balls to say no. 85% proved that.

Not a good argument! Jetstreams had no autopilot hence the proficiency. I do agree however that we as pilots should hand fly periodically to keep proficient not just on approach.

Avroman no APU is a safety concern in hot weather. There is no amount of training that can keep the cabin safe in hot weather with no APU. If you can't fly the aircraft with no flight director and FMS, this means that you have allowed your skills to erode to an unacceptable level. The good news is this has an easy cure. Practice makes perfect. There are circumstances where refusal is a responsible option but it shouldn't be the default option and certainly not because your headed to a busy airport.

There is a reason we have the automation we have today, and it's notvto add to our laziness. The automation helps with situational awareness. Now on a clear VFR day, no fatigue, it probably do able, but then you start adding things, and things snowball. Ever heard of the chain of events? Anyway, who are you talking about here? Line holders, reserve pilots? Just going to LGA, DCA, or JFK is a lot already for those that don't go in there very often. If you ask a Delta pilot, most would tell you that they are glorified button pushers now. Yes, raw hand flying skills are diminishing throughout in the industry, but when the $hit hits the fan that autopilot relieves workload