Was he a prior military pilot?

No. We were actually Co workers at a flight school. Went to eagle in '11 with around 800TT

Good question. I thought they would have selected at the end of NOV for guys and gals that would need to be in class by FEB. Guess not. Maybe they'll select first week in DEC? :rolleyes:

If you go to a DAL job fair (I think they stopped going to WAI, NGPA, OBAP) or have an internal letter of red, they guarantee that your App will be scored.

If you score the minimum points, you'll get the interview invite. The review process is manual, compared with UAL or AA.

Wasn't this flow reduction always the plan?

This was posted 2/1/2017 @07:09 pm in the Envoy thread. I remembered reading something like this about Envoy's flow; I had to search for it.

Awesome point. Attrition is a huge factor. Not everyone is sticking around for the flow. Actually about half are. 300 a year lost to flow, another 300 a year lost to other carriers. That's 300 a year giving up their "right" to flow.

I think you are far exaggerating outside attrition. It seems far too many are complacently waiting patiently for the flow. In my opinion, everyone needs to be actively pursuing ALL the majors much more enthusiastically. The flow is "too good to be true;" each month the flow gets delayed later and later.

Well if the numbers are wrong (600 a year that envoy is losing) then you're right... But it's not my exaggeration. If it's truly 600 a year, then it's accurate (the 300/300).

I do completely agree with you though, that flow shouldn't be depended upon.... That wasn't my point though. Point is, if we're basing flow and projected flow on actual flow'ers ahead of us, those are flawed numbers. Attrition to other airlines has to be accounted for

It's not 600...the most accurate MEC newsblast I saw was from three months ago and had total attrition at 330. Obviously it's greater than that now, but of those 330, 95 were to OAL.

Attrition outside the flow
 

If there is attrition outside the flow, it is minimal, certainly among captains. I’ve only flown with a handful of captains who even say they maintain a log book. Yes, they could have one printed from Envoy records if need be, but these are guys who have given up on anything besides the flow. One guy said he had a few friends hired outside the flow. Not positive they were both to AA, but they had been vigorously pursuing job fairs for a while AND they both have what we can refer to as “additional attributes” that most in the industry weren’t born with.

I think the reality is if you can’t significantly stand out from the crowd, whether with Space Shuttle command time or the ability to add “diversity” to a company, you are just another resume and it will take a while for your number to come up to even interview.

YMMV, just my .02 and that is probably all it is worth.

Captains with motivation to leave are soon coming to the line. As we upgrade people who are 6,7 even 8 years from flow they will be motivated to leave.

Every captain I've flown with so far, unless he was an Envoy lifer, fits this description. But they've all been less than 2 years from flowing. I still maintain that even if you're close to flowing and dead set on AA, at least keep that application up to date with AA to try and jump a few spots ahead in seniority but I haven't gotten the impression they are even doing that.

I agree with this.

Actually I know of a few 175 guys that have at least a year to flow that are going to Delta and Southwest. I know Delta is hiring a lot. I've been told SWA is advertising 900 in 2018 but will hire as much as the training center can handle which can take them well over 1000. SWA has the highest capacity to take new hires among all the legacies right now. Something is stirring up over there for sure and its beyond just Hawaii.

I know a lot of people frown on them because they think its just a glorified regional with 5 leg days. I've seen a lot of SWA trips and that stereotype isn't true at all. The bulk of their trips are 3 days average about 3 legs a day. I had to dig really hard to finally find a 5 leg day. It wasn't even that bad. It was LBB-DAL-HOU-HRL-HOU-DAL. You started at 1600 and were back and done at 2300. That was the only 5 leg day on that trip. They don't have any of those up in the North. As you all know it will only take seconds to find a 5 leg day in an envoy bid packet. On top of that it probably has a 2.5 hour sit somewhere in those 5 legs too.

They also pretty awesome reserve rules too. There is not a long call out. But you get a minimum of 15 days off a month guaranteed. You'll have AM or PM reserve. I don't think there is airport standby. They also pay distance flown. One trip equals something like 160 miles. If you overblock then you will still get more trips by the way. Each reserve day pays a minimum of 6 trips. If you get called in then each day goes to 6.5 trips minimum and if one of your days ends up being over 6 trips then you will get the difference added to on top your 90 trips regardless of what little your usage was the rest of the month. Each day pays a minimum of 6.5 trips. Its also easy to give away reserve blocks or pick some up even among line holders. Apparently all the new hires are getting their ultimate base of choice within 6 months of their hire date. People fly an average of 110 trips per month over there and still average 16 days off while doing it. They have a 10 year upgrade now but they think anyone hiring after 2014 and beyond will upgrade in 6-7 years.

Give it a shot. All I hear about is that the application process through the interview is extremely painless. One guy told me he was in and out of the whole thing in 3 hours and only about 45 minutes to an hour was actually interviewing.

Anyone who has at least a year to flow should be keeping there app up to date. Don't get fixated on the carrot in front of you. If you actually look around you'll notice that we are chasing this flow carrot in front of us right through a whole garden of carrots. You just got to get off the horse and dig them up.

This...

I was supposed to Flow to AA by 2019. I've been in DAL for a little bit over a year. Most of my NH friends at Envoy are staying and waiting for the flow.

I would lost around 250k + years of seniority waiting for AA. The flow should be a backup plan for everybody, not their first option, unless that person doesn't have a degree.

I wish I could see more people from Envoy getting hired everywhere. Most CAs I've flown at DAL talk about how good Envoy pilots are. Training department and recruitment also knows that. But it seems there's no motivation for it, because AA is always around the corner.

Incorrect. Less than 240ish flowed this year and 120ish left for other places.

I think the final flow number was about 260 for the year.

According to the MEC NewsBlast I received today...

As of 12/7/2017: Flow YTD - 264; Total Attrition YTD (incl. flow) - 365

At PSA they drop the "Ops necessity" on our flow numbers all the time to go from 5 to 6 was like trying to get Jesus to rise from the dead a second time.

Just shows how concerned and frightened about the future of the operation. They are putting up a very good poker face. Now if our unions would capitalize on that....


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Just curious what DOH is flowing at Envoy. I was Chatting w a captain before non reving and he said he had 12 months before he gets drafted and was hired dec 07. Did I hear Him correctly? Also, I heard Your training Dept got some gains. Or was that a rumor? Feds asked me what it would take to bypass my flow. What he thought was fair was absolutely comical. His eyes got awfully big when I told him what it would take to keep me from bypassing w a retention package.

Last flow per our union email showed 12/5/2005


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I sincerely doubt most of the non protected pilots will ever see a flow. I’m sure in two or three years they won’t be able to staff the WOs and will have to bring it all in house with lower pay or same as now. Also... yea I’m surprised at how many guys haven’t updated apps or logbooks, they’re losing out on a lot of money by waiting for the flow.

12/2005 are the guys currently flowing. That’s right. 12 year flow. Hopefully new hires aren’t buying into the predatory recruiting tactics of Envoy’s recruiting department. They have advertised right here on this site a 5 year flow with 40+ flowing each month.

A “fed” asked you that? What interest would they have in asking you that?

AA will only hire 730 pilots for 2018. According to a Jumpseater this morning.

Wow, I honestly thought I misheard the captain about the flow. I know comparing peed on to eagle is like apples and oranges. But, we are into the 08s. It’s the guys hired in 11 that hit the jockpot. Most are 28-31. Back when no one wanted to come fly those two fan S cans. We are about to reach a very serious problem I believe. Our Training Dept is going to become a revolving door. Losing EVERYONE w 4 plus years of instructing exp. We don’t have the exp you guys do or the numbers. it’s going to be new hires teaching new hires. Going 2 be a difficult task to keep checkairmen and APDs here. The fed was curious what it might take to keep someone around who has been here to move up the ranks within Dept. I wasn’t unreasonable in my response... fwiw Im still embarrassed about how it all went down and our group slit your guys’ throat when we had the golden opportunity to get it ALL back. Hope I’m not stepping on anyone’s toes in our thread. Just curious what’s going on there compared to here. Again, they are two completely different airlines I know This.

That issue is apparently why the PDT old timers in the union are trying to slip in “non seniority list” instructor clause into contract negotiations with the company. They want to be able to setup permanent shop in the training center after age 65 hits and they collect their pensions.

Between taking instructor jobs off the seniority list and PBS for scheduling like management wants, PDT will probably be looking at a 30+% reduction in manning requirements compared to what they need now for the expansion.

Dacuj you got this oh wait you are banned!

Flow is no longer a selling point for new hires over there at envoy plain and simple.

The 60+ person classes they are running say otherwise. The small class in December is because of the holidays. They will be back to normal in Jan.

Ooo this got interesting. I hope you’re not referring to all the prices we paid during negotiations for nominal flow through and severe cuts to pay and QOL.

Any one of us would’ve sacrificed “increased flow” for better pay and work rules, not what was shoved down our throats during BK.

Let’s also not forget the union that did nothing when 2 bases closed, and there were massive involuntary displacements. Thanks for sending the emails though.

Yeah but for how long? And then just wait til a second and third regional match Endeavor pay...or a regional starts offering to buy out our two year signing bonus commitment.

58 in class tomorrow

Are you sure it's the union that wants non senority list instructors?

Oh wow! I'd heard the Dec. class only had 18. I guess after they found out they'd get a Christmas off, a bunch of guys changed their class date. So like I said flow is still bringing them in droves.

Great. No need to meter flow now

It’s the old timers (within 3 years of retirement) within the union that are really excited about the idea...

What is the flow looking for new hires right now? I'm trying to decide between a few different airlines. It seems that Envoy dangling the flow to main line is the only true benefit over one with better pay.

9+ years on paper. Unknown variables include outside attrition, and AA hiring, just to name a couple.

This is true. With the company metering the flow, it's virtually useless for a new hire today. Unless pay and/or QOL is addressed here, I will continue to recommend prospects head to EDV.

Few will stay for 9. That's why I don't think 9 will hold. I will guess 25% will take another path. That should drop it to 6-7. 200 year x 6 =1200 pilots.