Morale issues on the line.
 

Pay

Forced upgrade

Forced Displacements

Forced equipment change

Schedules

Forced commute

Fatigue

All time low morale on the line.

Morale is definitely low. Lots of b*tching going on.

Management so Silent
 

No message from them since choas!?!

We have flow. Thats something to be grateful.

You new guys are starting to figure it out. The honeymoon is over for you. Welcome to Envoy. For those of you who weren't here between late 2011-2014, you don't know about the all time low morale. Having said that, things are definitely moving backwards here in terms of QOL, compensation amongst our peers and morale. I think we are about to see a rise in FO and junior CA attrition. I do wish the union leadership would engage with the pilot group some more. The upcoming base visits are nice, but obviously only a portion of us will be around for those. All pilot teleconferences are always helpful for the pilot group to get updated on the current state of relations between the company and ALPA, whether or not much is going on.

LOL. All time low?? You weren't here when we had bad pay and 4-5 year reserve FOs! I can assure you morale isn't an all time low. Are there things that can be fixed yes. Should pay be increased yes. Forced upgrades and displacements are definitely sketchy.

But the union came up with that really awesome LOA a couple months ago. I am sure they are diligently working on a replacement for that dumpster fire. Then we will all be happy and don't need raises or flow.

Morale issues on the line.
 

Those issues were industry wide back then, it was as not just Eagle suffering. Bad pay, long reserve, concessions, Long upgrades. Not the same situation today.

Forgive people for wanting more old timers.

*Many of us avoided the industry until pay rates/bonuses came up* including RTP/military guys. Obviously it’s been a pilot pay shortage. “Enjoy” could be making the same mistakes that lead to the departure of many Line pilots to other carriers, exasperating the shortage, vs taking the lead in changing the culture, contract, pay rates, even bonuses which Endeavor, Republic, Air Wisconsin, and Commutair had done since 2013 / 1500hr rule / FAR117. I do believe Enjoy will do what’s right eventually. Takes time and patience for things to Go up to Mainline and come back down. Especially when there are 2 other WO involved and it’s a Me Too atmosphere. Mainline can not compete with Delta and it’s single WO pilot Group, with our 3 WO much larger Me Too groups all wanting the same pay rate, and better TA/contract like Endeavor now has. Something has to give somewhere in the cost structure of the WO’s before we can get a pay rate like Endeavor.

Things have already come back down from mainline. Pay raises are already approved by AAG. Envoy management is the one not acting.

Disgusting

seems as though Sam is lacking in what he said he would do if he got elected MEC Chair here are his selling points for getting elected taken from sam pool for mec chairman email sent 10/6/14

• It is my goal to challenge the leadership of ALPA National to align their actions with their words: they can not continue publicly decrying pilot pay & benefits while simultaneously approving long-term pilot contracts that lock in decaying pilot pay & benefits (especially when undercutting other ALPA work groups).

• I want to increase two-way communication and crew-room presence of ALPA.

• I want to ensure compliance with our existing contract to the fullest extent possible. This past year the company set out on a mission to modify our existing, forward-looking contract. It is my belief that such a process would be more likely to bear fruit if both parties resolved outstanding disagreements first.

I believe in a strong work ethic, commitment to honesty, integrity and transparency; and I ask the same of everyone who performs ALPA work on the pilots’ behalf, after all, we’re spending your hard-earned dues money.

My only goal here is to pass on accurate information without over exaggerating or sugar coating anything. The idea that morale is lower now than 2013/15 is laughable. People didn't think they were going to have jobs soon. The company told us we would close you down if we didn't take pay cuts. More than a 1000 pilots left Eagle. People complain about reserve for a few months. Lol.

I'm all for making this place better going forward. However, when there is this much movement and growth Reserve isn't on my top priority to fix because people won't be on it very long. I would be very interested in seeing an LOA addressing Long Term Displaced CAs that are on reserve so they don't quit after a few months. Reserve isn't that bad if you live in base. Reserve for commuters is extremely painful and I'd like to see that issue corrected. Going forward we need to look at Pay, Schedules, MIN day pay, and current grievances.

Bingo......

Forced upgrade to a different airframe AND domicile just to sit reserve is complete and absolute BS. If the upgrade is forced, a pilot should at the very minimum be able to keep their domicile.

Morale issues on the line.
 

With said LOA for new hires upgrades.... What changes do you think they would make? I’m curious, asking for a friend who was just displaced to LGA from DFW and doesn’t want to commute 14 hours a week.

I know I have no room to talk about Morale being a new guy. However I can assure you I wouldn’t be here if I knew about the forced upgrades. I’ll give it a couple months and see how it goes.

Also, to those who think you can deny the forced upgrade (For QOL reasons) you can’t. If the company made an exception for one they would have to for all...



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And you fly the 175!!

......and that, boys and girls, is why you have a grumpy captain. Any questions?


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Said LOA is simply something I think they should do. I doubt they would even talk or consider something like this. I think they should get positive space on first and last day of a reserve block that is 4 days or longer. Unlimited commuter hotels for pilots on the turn back list. And 12 min day off.

This would make Envoy reserve a little more bearable.

I could deal with that and I wouldn't even bid out of NY at that point!

The option could be one or the other. I’m commuting anyway so I’d rather keep my airplane. People are going to leave in larger numbers than expected because of the base issue. A guy on the west coast could make the big D work but a New York commute is out of the question. Persuing other options is what I’m hearing from FO’s being forced to upgrade.

A positive space commute, at least to work. And if you get displaced to a different domicile then the company has to get you home as well.

Maybe similar thing to at least double the number of hotels for guys who are displaced while on reserve.

I’m not familiar with the transportation situation in NY. But I would imagine having a hotel vs a crash pad would ease some additional burden there as well.

I agree. They sit airport standby and get no flying.

This ^^^^^

Guys who made decisions to get back into the industry and or change segments out of corporate or 135 and which carrier to choose did so based on a given set of information.

Just like in the lift equation, when one thing changes something else has to as well for things to balance out.

Most new hires need to stop b!tch!ng so much. Yes QOL is down, but it has been way worse. You all came in with big sign on bonuses, fast movement and instant upgrades to CA pay scales.

You all know or should of known how the aviation industry works.....it changes on a dime, sometimes for good sometimes for bad. Most pilots have to sit reserve once, most pilots will have to commute once, most pilots will be displaced at least once in their airline career. Deal with it or get out.

Most of You have it better now then most of your CAs did a few years back. Stop b!tch!ng, and follow the contract, don't pick up open time, don't go above and beyond and keep emailing your union reps to help change the things that need to be changed.

I thought you guys were against "negotiating in public" but I've been seeing a lot of it on here.

Suddenly just because Endeavor gives pay raises, everybody here thinks they are immediately entitles as well. You have to remember the value of what we do have that Endeavor does not. Flow.

Agree with your first point. Talk in a group text or via PM or to the union.

The second point....try harder next time. Very unoriginal.

More proof you are in bed with the company. Only someone like that would say that flow is a bargaining chip and we don’t deserve raises. Get back under your rock.


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Lol. I'm not one of those pilots that think what I say on here has any impact on negotiations. Also, we have pushed for higher wages, better schedule, and better working environment BEFORE Endeavor got their increase. Endeavor passing their TA gives us perceived hope/momentum in finally getting a more decent wage.

Endeavor guy here..been lurkin on this thread for a bit to get an idea of why morale would be low at a place with a flow. Also considering Endeavor and Envoy are arguably the top two regionals, albeit for obviously different reasons. First let me say that I hope our TA brings continued momentum to the pilot groups of all regionals who have busted their asses through some seriously tough times and are due what they're worth. That being said, as an outsider, the "flow" just seems to be smoke and mirrors that management plays with the pilot group to justify treating their employees like crap. From the guys I know that work there, QOL, work rules, schedules, and pay are far below what they should be, but its justified because of the "flow".

Do y'all have something written into your contract stating that the flow can't be discontinued, metered, or reversed, due to "company need"or some other lawyer speak line of BS? Who's to say the flow doesn't go away at the next economic downturn? If thats the case, the flow seems practically worthless. Ok, maybe not worthless, but close enough. What are the current flow numbers for a new hire? 10 years or something? Take a beating for 10 years but its okay because there is a flow?

It would seem as an outsider that the flow is only keeping the koolaid drinking portion of the pilot group happy, where as the guys that can do basic math could see that 2+2 doesn't really add up?

Not trolling here, genuinely curious.

People flowing today are about 12 years seniority. Lots of BS from recruiters and salesmen in the past selling a 5 or 6 year flow. All that matters is what is happening currently and that's a 12 year flow.

So because you had it bad we should just shut up and take it (what we consider to be out of line)? People ***** just to do it. Sometimes it helps to vent and that's what 80% of this forum is.

I'm glad the new hires get/got all of the money and incentives because it means this industry is changing, but not fast enough. The companies need to keep up instead of reacting. Treat us fair and pay us what we are worth.

The company cited on a couple of occasions posts over on Eaglelounge that changed their negotiating stance. If you choose to believe that or not is up to you, I'd err on the side of caution though.

Also an Endeavor guy here. Seems like night and day QOL and morale difference between Envoy and Endeavor, which is amazing considering half the Endeavor pilots commute to NYC. Envoy pilots are not worth a penny less than an Endeavor pilot and flow should not weigh down any compensation at all. After all isn’t flow also a way to keep compensation down at the wholly owneds by not encouraging any lifers?

For the most part, I’d agree. But there have been occasions in the past where the company has seen things posted online by our pilots and then turned around and changed their tune at the negotiating table and taken things off the table.

Those complaining the most and the loudest are from the last couple of generations where entitlement reigns. You expect to be rewarded without crawling through a little mud. Suck it up a little.
You should be trying to improve it, but most of you are going about it in a whiny, disrespectful, annoying way. It's also more visible due to social media.

I agree with the fact that the most complaining seem to be the new hires and I definitely believe that there are a lot of entitled people out there. My main point was that the attitude of shut up and take it because others had it worse is ridiculous.

Also, like you stated, it is much more visible because of social media. But the flip side of that is that this forum allows people to vent and in that process learn the correct way to do it (emailing union and what not).

Flow has zero monetary value. It is staffing tool for mainline and a recruiting/retention tool for WO management with a secondary effect of benefiting pilots.

Was talking with one of those 12 year seniority CA a couple of months ago. He was scheduled to flow this month. He reminded me for the few years after him there were very few hires. As a Protected Pilot, he said by the time the last PP flowed they should have about 8 years seniority.

He reminded me just a few years ago, when flows of the 824 pilots were starting the flows had 25 years of seniority. AA was not hiring for that lost decade.

The 2010 hires will be (hopefully) done 3rd quarter of 2019 (9 year flow). There were a lot of 2011 hires and it will take until mid-2020 to get through them (8.5-9 year flow). In 2021 it will drop to around 6.5 years - the 2012/13 hires will go quickly and we will be into the 2014 hires.

So yes, it will drop, but it will be 2021 before it really begins to start dropping.

I am not saying shut up and take it, I am saying stop b!tching so much, all I here from new hires is how bad things are. Yes things are bad but what I was trying to say is that there was a time when things were a lot worse then they are now, and those that experienced it are the ones you are complaining to. They understand and then some.
What I also think is funny is when people are shocked when things change in this industry from what they were expecting..If anything, change has always existed in aviation and it changes overnight. So having to commute is normal in ones airline career.
Also so many complain but do nothing about it, they continue to not understand the contract, make scheduling adhere to it, continue to help the company by going above and beyond etc.