Should that be the case, then captains should be the only ones to go to PBS and the version of SAP that doing so will produce.

Nah. Things have always been unfair. It’s the CAs turn to see some money.

Edit; I just saw you’re a PSA guy. I can’t speak on any unfairness there. But at Envoy the new hires and FOs have gotten all the “gets” lately.

This guy gets it

I'm not. There's no reason to be giving the company anything in this environment while everyone else gets pay plus better QOL for nothing.

They’ll get PSB when they want to. It’s just the sad reality of the situation we are in.

Besides didn’t we already iron out that deal with agreement of 40 175’s? My understanding was that all they needed to do was give 4 months notice.

Yea, the only issue is the cost savings. It was done when we were 3,000 strong. So it may need to be reworked. But might as well “get” something for PBS when we will get it somehow anyway

The way I understood it was that on the delivery of the 41st that there would have to be talks about PBS but not that it would necessarily be implemented.

The suspension of Letter 13-04 will end on the date that the 41st EMB-175 is delivered and within 30 days after such delivery the PBS Working Group will re-commence the process of negotiating and finalizing a PBS LOA pursuant to the requirements of Letter 13-04. It is the parties’ intent to complete PBS implementation as outlined in Letter 13-04 no later than 120 days after delivery of the 41st EMB-175.

They put a value on PBS, should we not agree on it, we are responsible for making up the value placed on it.

Don’t we have the 41st on property already?

Take it out of first year pay!!

Good luck getting people to come here when the current pilots have too start paying for not wanting PBS. Never going to happen

No s#it. That’s why pbs isn’t going to happen until another 9/11. The company realizes the limitation of their position and is playing their hand well.

Yes, moving forward on PBS has been suspended by the company even though the 41st 175 was delieverd. The company didn't think PBS was in their best interest at the moment so therefore the suspension.

If/when they decide to proceed, the union and company still have to negotiate a few things and then the pilots still get to vote on PBS. If wr vote it down, the pilot group is on the hook for the already negotiated price that the company valued PBS to be.

If we vote no, then the union and company will have to go back and negotiate how they take that money from us.

When does Envoy's current contract expire?
 

Just like flow was suspended and, or metered.

Seems they can do anything they want. I agree with you, the company does not want PBS yet. When they do and are ready they will come to the bargaining table, most likely after PSA has agreed and approved, then pressure is on our MEC to agree and “me too” us into a PSA agreement. Even if our MEC and the company both would like to kick-the-can-down-the-road on PBS, SHOULD the letter not be enforced? Shouldn’t discussions be happening?

41st has been delivered. Discussion is suspended, Company has a freeze on Rsv, and other improvement talks. Discussing PBS per the letter is a hand to be played and can bring them back to the table. File another grievance.

Announcements this year will be interesting. UA increasing regional flying, UA openly discussing and opening Scope discussions in order to compete against LLC/ULLCs, and survive pressure from shareholder to increase profits and margins. Boeing lost the legal fight 4-0 vote in favor of Bombardier/Delta/Airbus- CS100/300

Really hard to predict what the Regional industry will look like by December 2018, yet alone ENY by Summer/Fall 2018.

Just a thought.

Oh like if they approve 1 more guy a month to flow then the whole pilot group takes pbs in the shorts?

PBS
 

So what is the big deal with PBS?

I know it is/was a negotiating point and lots of other pilot and FA groups use it.

Why is it a good thing or a bad thing for for the company and or the pilots?

PBS increases pilot efficiency. No vacation conflicts, no training conflicts, no transition conflicts. More pilots get a line but there are less trips to trade with in open time less open time to pick up for extra pay. Airlines with pbs get the pilots to fly More for the same pay.

PBS is only as good as the parings. The group that controls the pairings controls the quality of the lines generated by PBS. One guess as to who holds unilateral control of the pairings under our proposed agreement.

When does Envoy's current contract expire?
 

That can be negotiated and amended. Doubt ALPA would give company “unilateral control of pairings.” Can anyone name one regional airline where that is happening.


People are nervous about a bogeyman that does not exist when it comes to PBS. There is a win-win situation out there that works great for both parties, that middle ground has to be found. Hardliners hold up progress. Sometimes Management understands not to walk into a gunfight with pitch forks, so they wait it out until the day that Amazon order of AR’s are delivered at the door step. Then they approach ALPA with pitch forks, having the AR’s strapped to their backs. Oh it’s a pilots market alright, until the gun fight begins at the negotiation table.

Sometimes working together for the best outcome for both pilots and company is not a bad idea. Screaming screw the company and PBS, give them nothing is not a viable negotiation strategy, in any “market”.

I agree 100%, but in order for this approach to work the pilot groups has to have faith that the agreed upon deal won’t be violated. I have a feeling right now the trust is at a low.

When has the company ever worked together for the best outcome for both parties? And why should we? This mentality is why we get destroyed at the negotiating table.

Anyone who wants to know about PBS and how it will impact your QOL, go ask a senior FA how their transition to PBS was like during and after bankruptcy. I encourage you to ask not one, but many out there. That will give you a true barometer as to how “positive” the impact will be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

It is not just about screwing the company or whatever. PBS is a pay cut. Right now the company pays for transition conflicts. Losing PBS means losing those conflicts. That is lost pay. Also we would lose DTS. As somebody who always DTS's my vacation, this is a huge give away. Why would we give a single thing away right now?

When we almost got PBS a few years ago (after bankruptcy), the company did have the complete last say over pairings. ALPA could suggest changes but if they didn't meet the company's parameters, ALPA's suggestions were scrapped. I remember a scheduling rep told me one month the ALPA pairings had greatly improved commutability and cadence but they were scrapped because the base-wide number of crew overnights/hotels the company had to pay for went up by two for the month.

PBS is lost pay for pilots, it is a gain of control for the company, and it requires that we trust our untrustworthy management. I'm not saying PBS could never be beneficial, but there is absolutely no way any pilot should be considering giving the company anything in exchange for improvements. Every single change to our contract right now should be an improvement, with absolutely nothing given in exchange. We gave for years, it is their turn to give now.

What is DTS?

Drop Trip Sequence

Basically, as a line holder, if your vacation block touches any sequence, the “left-over” days on either end are dropped. You’re only paid for the days within your vacation block. The dropped days surrounding your vacation are unpaid.

When does Envoy's current contract expire?
 

Many “senior FA’s “ now really like PBS (vs immediately prior to and a little while just after Bankruptcy, to get use to and understand the system)

Change is hard. We all know there are kinks just about every roll out. These kinks do not help foster confidence. Kinks in any rollout is not a indication of the short, or long term benefits of the whole system. Let that sink in a little. You will find hell raisers everywhere. I still have meat in the game curing while many of you flow in 1 year to a well established and oiled PBS system at American. Just reality, I understand they are not the same, I am not claiming they are, or that they will be. Totally different for now I know. BUT YOU START SOMEWHERE, and it’s not in fear. I’m sure AA had hell raisers at one point, just like our FA’s Pre and just after BK. Now? Not so much.

Not hearing complaints at other regionals either. Not even Mesa. Again lots of PTSD, here at Eagle/Voy. I don’t blame many of you, to say you’ve been through a lot is an understatement. Royal screwing from many levels, angles and inserted in various holes is what happened to you guys 3 to 4+ years ago.

Talk to guys at Skywest. I haven't heard anyone who likes it. The only people who don't mind PBS are those in the top 30% of seniority. Everyone else gets screwed.

I DTS most of my vacations so losing the extra week or two of free time, give or take, is a game changer for a lot of folks.

The bottom line here is that PBS only benefits the company. What do the we get out of it as a benefit? I have neither seen nor heard of any major positive aspect that improves QOL from PBS. Supposedly there will be less people on reserve. Supposedly. I highly doubt that will change seeing that this company's reserve system revolves around 1/3 of the pilot group being on reserve. And the only way for that to change is for an overhaul to the reserve system as a whole.

The simple fact is PBS is beneficial for the company's bottom line and nothing more than that.

My AA mentor loves PBS. He basically gets what he wants and get plenty of time off.

Who is he... E190 Driver?

767 Checkairman. But thats irrelevant.;)

In other words, your Daddy. Nice.

I feel sorry for your AA mentor. He must be a douche as well to have to talk to you in person and like it.

My point exactly. That’s why I said ask “any senior FA” because at the time they were NOT senior. Now they will say it’s alright because they have the seniority. I remember when it first came out only the top 15% got what they bid for. Everyone else got nothing close to their PBS preferences. I understand it’s a change, but from what I witnessed years ago is this isn’t something the pilots should seek nor want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The thing about PBS is there are hundreds of variations of the product. It's like saying 'Cars are bad!'. There are some versions of PBS which would be a significant improvement for Envoy pilots. For instance allegent has a good PBS that includes a SAP. Nav blue is another popular one. Realize that the arilines that have the best QOL in the entire industry have PBS. DAL, UAL, AA, Jet Blue.

Im pretty sure LCAs at AA don't bid with PBS like normal line holders do but nice try.

When does Envoy's current contract expire?
 

Exactly! This is my point also. To say PBS is bad is just fear mongering.

It’s like claiming sex is bad. Depends on many factors, who, “where”, when, and “how.”

“PBS is bad ummkayyy. Ask our old-er flight attendants. 4 yrs ago how they liked it“

A while back I posted asking about what a better reserve would look like.

One of the responses stated that Envoy revolves around having a reserve pool that is as deep as it it to avoid late departures. I get that, but the system is still incredibly inefficient FOR THE COMPANY as well as the pilots. The company is PAYING A WHOLE LOT OF GUYS TO NOT FLY. There has to be something better that would be beneficial to both parties. A more efficient reserve would save the company money and less people on reserve should mean less time on reserve as a pilot which I think most people would see as an improvement.

What makes you think that Envoy's PBS will mirror any of those mentioned carriers versus other regionals PBS systems such as Mesa? If I was a betting man I'd say it would be very different from AA's system.