Flying is seasonal, employment at envoy isn't. We are way overstaffed for Jan February March, but not so much for the summer. Last summer there were NO OFE reserves for about a month. None, not one. They plan to stretch our staffing thin again this summer. Reserve goes in cycles as to how many people are on it. The best reserve system is the one your on the least

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When does Envoy's current contract expire?
 

Fear mongering? I was there man. If it is exactly the same vendor four years ago, the same vendor used for FAs now, it is crap. Not to even mention the IT issues it has too. I had to use a specific version of a certain web browser just to get it to work!!! (On a windows system WTF?). The only person who benefits from PBS is the company. The PBS workgroup even did roadshows and I was shocked that they would even chose such awful software. It performed like it was wrote in a computer science class at a community college.

Now I would be willing to entertain a different vendor (at least more user friendly) while the pilots control the majority of the pairings, then I would love to sing a different tune.

Until then I will be a big fat NO!


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Assuming we would end up with one of the good versions of PBS agreements is unrealistic. Also comparing mainline QoL to ours is a joke, right? You really think the reason mainline DAL, UAL, and AA all have better QoL than envoy is because of their PBS??? Come on.

Yes there are hundreds of versions, but we already have an idea of what it would be like for us......http://eagle.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx...%3d&tabid=6677 Pilots had no control over the pairings. If you don't think that old agreement would be a starting point I think maybe you don't realize who we are dealing with here. They do not negotiate in good faith. And this is zero sum: anything about our scheduling that is saving the company money is costing us.

DTS and transition conflict pay would be lost with PBS. Currently anyone with 3 weeks vacation can turn it into 6 or 7 weeks off. And anyone with a transition conflict can get paid twice for a day or two of work. Giving these up are concessions.

I couldn’t agree more.

Mathematically Equal?
 

Begging forgiveness for my ignorance, but isn’t this mathematically not quite correct?

The flights and times are what they are. The company pays for those. Thus, the company doesn’t gain with PBS from a pay for hours flown perspective.

Pilots who “use” the system, albeit following the contract, are the ones who would lose. As you describe ... and by reduced overtime opportunities and likely critical coverage opportunities. There would also be fewer opportunities to “sit reserve” and then grab overtime on their days off.

However, other pilots, especially junior seniority pilots, would gain because they would get lines, have less reserve, and commute for no reason less often. Aren’t those all things that are complained out a LOT here on this forum?

So, it seems that PBS would “spread the wealth” across the flock of pilots whilst reducing overtime and other costs for the company.

Am I missing something?

PS Not that one of couldn’t choose to sit reserve ... just that it would be much more difficult, less likely, to do that AND get some overtime.

This makes all lot of sense. I didn't know the previously proposed system was so bad.

This is 100% correct.

For those of us who were actually here when we were seriously working on rolling out PBS can speak to how terrible PBS would be for this pilot group. We were trained on the software, we had mock parallel bids using current line bidding and PBS bidding, and we had a clear view of what PBS would look like once it launched here at Enovy. It was terrible. And as others have mentioned, losing DTS would be a HUGE loss, especially now that we only get 14 days of vacation a year until year 8 pay. No conflict pay, huge reduction in OT. Just not good. But I guess I'm just fear mongering. I'm glad you new guys have it all figured out.

This.

They'll do anything to get off reserve for what 4 months now?! Boohoo. That would have been a dream for many guys here who spent 3.5+ years at the bottom on reserve. Thankfully they can't vote on probation.

This, exactly. I was a PBS trainer. And I've always been a strong no vote against it. This PBS agreement is no good, and PBS in general is a set of concessions. I don't understand why any pilot in their right mind would consider a single concession right now.

When does Envoy's current contract expire?
 

Good OT available at Piedmont, Mesa, and Endeavor. Plus at a higher rate. Are they not using using PBS??? That fear tactic and mongering is Obsolete. FA’s are not Pilots. Their negotiators are not ours either.

Plus rebuttals I hear “No OT available” is bull. Really big bull crap from the Hell No’ers who will flow soon. Does OT availability not depend on the month and season, and staffing? Are there tons of “good OT” available now with the current system in February and March? With the current system is “good OT” available every single month of the year? You all know the answer. So why do “PBS Hell No’ers” keep saying that also. It’s a mute point.

If the possibility exist for ALPA, plus a good vendor to be in control, then it’s worth a shot in my eyes me! Greater good for the majority. Senior lifers and junior guys benefit the most. We won’t know until it’s negotiated if the door is open, but to say HELL NO, off the bat is bat**** retarded.

We want reserve fixed, yes granted PBS does not fix it completely, but the number/amount of our fellow pilots who are effected by crap reserve rules, inefficiencies, lost days, early commute in the day before, to sit Stby/RAP1 etc, could be dramatically reduced. We keep doing the same thing yet expect some different result? insanity.

What has happened here? People are actually arguing for PBS? There's a reason Envoy put a 7 million dollar price tag on it. It saves them 7 million dollars that could be in pilots pockets. And yes there is good OT. Trips get put in there for training, vacation, transition, 7 days, DTS. And all that would be covered day 1 of the month with PBS so that means the only OT available would be the few turns they couldn't slide into somebodys schedule or waiting for someone to call in sick. It's not worth the few months of reserve people are subject to now. When did this pilot group lose their mind on PBS?

I'm sorry but this is what everyone is thinking but aren't saying. We are tired of the lifers and the new guys getting all the goods and leaving the rest of the pilots to suffer. Lifers kept their 4 and 5 weeks of vacation and you only get two maybe three one day. Lifers kept their top pay but will we ever see it if the hiring stops? New guys getting 20/45k in signing bonuses. We get forced upgrades and displacements. So your argument that it's going to help the senior and junior guys is lost on deaf ears.

PBS means less days off for me. PBS means less pay for me. PBS means I have to work more to make the same amount of money. So no thanks on PBS.

Hopefully it is only Silent Lurker who has lost his mind on it. For everyone's sake.

Wow. Might as well just donate your paycheck to the company while you're at it. I keep saying it but it's the mentality like this that gets us killed at the negotiating table.

Not an Envoy pilot, I'm just trying to keep up with what's going on industry wide. I wanted to chime in though on this one and say that with PBS this isn't true in any form I've experienced of it. Due to how the trips are laid out in start/end sequences as well as things like pre-scheduled events there is an efficiency point for open time because the system can no longer build a productive line with what's left (IE you'd get some lines built to less work than guarantee).

As prior Endeavor I know there is language there that involves the amount of open time at the end of bid construction and the bid windows, reserve amounts and even credit push*.

What it comes down to is it's a matter of what you get in the language for PBS that makes it good or bad. Generally speaking, it accentuates your seniority. A senior pilot will get a better schedule, a junior pilot will get a worse one and a mid seniority pilot will hardly know a difference. One really nice thing about PBS is the ability to have a "standing bid." You enter a bid with what you generally want and can either leave it as is or tweak it each month. Once you understand how the system works you can make the best possible schedule for yourself without having to do anything month to month.



A big problem you can run into is the rules the company can use and control. Since the system knows your prior month's schedule it can put you wherever the company wants relative to legalities. If the system is allowed to build you a 75 hr line you and there are productive trips then you can get away with a nice high time off line. This is how Endeavor has traditionally been able to award 17-18 day off lines. But the company also has the option of forcing everyone into 85-90 hour lines (or whatever parameters they input). Another thing they can do is called a credit push (alluded to above) which is when it finishes building lines an reaches a set number of reserves the company wants has more open time than they want left. In this case the system re-runs the lines but starting from the bottom of the seniority list pilots start to have a higher credit window (lines still run in seniority but a senior pilot might be allowed a 75 hour line, if desired, while a junior pilot is forced to a 90 hour line).


What it comes down to is the language can be written in a way that allows good schedules and even ways for the extra pay (at Endeavor you can volunteer to work a higher value line and get premium pay on certain flying on your actual line award instead of needing to pick up open time). It can also allow greater flexibility in days off and larger blocks of days off than you may see with line bidding.

But on the other hand, if there are no restrictions every pilot might always work an 85-90 hour line at 11-12 days off regardless of how senior they are.


What I'm getting at is that PBS isn't necessarily a horrible thing. It really can be a benefit to both you and the company.... but the language is very important to ensure that there is a benefit to the pilot group.

Sadly the company doesn't have a great track record of agreeing to 'reasonable' language and the thought of leaving them alone to throw the PBS switches is not comforting.

Question on how DTS works. Vacation blocks begin on Saturday, so by touch, your affected trip has to end on Saturday or Sunday say, NOT Friday? Most don’t have weekends off, so you would probably be able to get something that overlaps on both ends, but again, it is overlapping to be considered touching?

It would be this ^^^

You are correct. If your trip ends on Friday, you can't DTS. If your trip extends into your vacation week (Saturday), you can use DTS. The trip has to overlap your vacation block at least one day to use DTS.

That is when you slide and then DTS. it’s all in the contract and it’s not really that hard to understand.

Slides are to avoid schedule conflicts, not create them. They won’t slide a no conflict schedule into a conflict (or at least they shouldn’t be).

I do agree with that. Slides are only to reduce conflicts. My bad.