When does Envoy's current contract expire?
 

I'm curious when the current Envoy contract expires & when a new one would take effect that would need to account for Endeavor/Republic/other regionals' new/current contract in some way. Thanks in advance for any insight you have.

I don’t think it expires for another 2-4 years.

In 2011 (or 2012?), we signed an 8 year bankruptcy concessionary contract. Then in late 2014 we signed another concessionary contract, this one for 10 years.

Who signs a ten year contract in the aviation game, stuff changes so fast

Oh junior...if you only lived through the battle of ALPA vs Envoy vs AAG over that contract. Those were not good times.

Thanks a lot, ORDinary - much appreciated.

Crystal ball time, but what potential exists for management & the Envoy pilot group to re-negotiate a deal prior the end of the current contact in 2024? For how long will the current Envoy contract (including flow...) remain enough to fill classes in competition with Endeavor’s contract (and possibly Republic’s & likely other airlines’)??

Yeah, I remember something about a “Comair II” being threatened buy AAG and Jerry Glass, and a certain east coast airline saying “yes” to a low-ball contract while Eagle and others said “no.”

Worth a google for junior...

When all the high value aviators realize that they become low value aviators once they are on property

There is a limited re-opener for the contract before then. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in 2020 both parties go to the table with 2 items they want to negotiate? As far as how long the current contract will keep brining guys in? Well, only time will tell. But I think anyone who thinks the new hire classes are going to take a substantial hit anytime soon are setting themselves up for disappointment. The cadet and RTP pipeline alone will keep a solid stream coming in.

Looks like I got some googling to do, of course after I finish my chores at home. Mom and dad get really mad when the chores aren’t done!

Lol...now that's funny

Well our pre-bankruptcy contract was a 16 year deal so the answer to your question is; us.

Yeah I am worried about that as well. I honestly don’t see them coming to the table anytime soon. I will most likely get my 1000 and then start actively looking for somewhere else, hopefully an LLC.

Many thanks, BT209. Do you have any idea how comprehensive those 2 items to be negotiated can be? (i.e., would it be more like 5 yr CA pay only? Or a comprehensive review of the basic hourly pay chart for CA's & FO's of all years time on property)

That's really interesting to me - and I don't mean that in a negative way because the contract was negotiated in a different era where there were some massive forces at work (i.e., Envoy's existence & carving a niche in post-bankruptcy/post-merger world). What factors have lead to both sides being agreeable to the longer term contracts the last couple times through negotiations? (I don't have any Part 121 experience yet so line me out if I need it here, but aren't most regional contracts typically much shorter than 10-16 year contracts?)

There was no agreeing on our 2014 contract. It was rammed down our throats. We voted it down a couple of times and then it finally got voted in begrudgingly in response to losing a good chunk of our fleet, new aircraft orders that were meant to come to us being sent to other carriers, and the threat of the airline being shutdown after a slow and painful death.

To answer your question: 60% of a pilot group who had just faced a year of liquidation threats, outright lies, planes being given away to other regionals in retaliation for a handful of no votes, other employee groups being turned against us, the firing of some union reps, and us shrinking from 3200+ pilots to just over half of that. In exchange for some 175s.

You have to turn it over and look at the back for the expiration, that’s where they put it

Thanks - I understand. It is what it is, sadly.

Our management was willing to liquidate the company to make us take cuts. So things will have to be pretty serious to make them give the cuts back. We are currently overstaffed, new hires are still coming in droves, and our training department is maxed out. I'm not really seeing what incentive they would have to renegotiate any time soon. Things could change, but people should understand how stingy, uncaring, and reactionary management is when it comes to paying their workers.

What Alpa brings to the table has to be cost neutral, so that won't be much

Got it, thanks Smutter

Overstaffed?? (In all equipment and bases?) What's the disconnect that leads to continued aggressive hiring if Envoy is overstaffed currently? Why is the flow to mainline being so heavily metered (by Envoy management, as I understand the situation) if Envoy is overstaffed currently?

This............

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!

Based on the info that RW put out last month there will be a 25% increase in lines overall by June, with everywhere but DFW seeing the growth. And it indicated only a VERY small reduction on the CRJ.

I think that is why the big push for captains and keeping the training pipeline full.

Unless they see major problems with the methods they are using now (RTP, cadets, HVA) or those who are here start talking with their feet, nothing is going to change.

PSA could be our friend this time. Rumor is they are close to an agreement to increase pay. Then we’d be me too’d.

Ever since they made their threats and we shrunk and then voted yes, they started to grow us back. Growing us involves doing what it takes to hire pilots (bonuses, advertising), then going to AA and asking for more flying. AA gives the feed to whoever can staff it. All envoy wants to do right now is angle for more and more flying. Having excess staffing helps them do that. The rare case at an airline when growth is bad: when it justifies them metering the flow.

Is that built into the contract somewhere?

It’s not. AAG has stated, and shown it won’t give any WO a competitive advantage over the other. Like the bonuses.

Because no matter what things may look like at this particular moment in time, the goal for this company is to get back to a 3,000+ pilot group.

They knew and we knew back in 2014 that pilot shortages and pressure to raise pay would be coming. That's one of the reasons we kept voting no despite the threats. Starting back then they have been structuring their feed to stay the cheapest while everyone else's pay went up. Pay is a recruitment tool, but cheaper recruitment tools include flow, RTP, cadet programs, quick upgrades, shiny 175s, etc. They locked us into paying more for benefits and getting less per diem 10 years. They locked us out of having our pay rates being determined by comparing us to like-sized regionals (yes, that used to be in our contract) right when like-sized regionals were starting get raises. The fact of the matter is that low morale is meaningless to them, unless it hurts recruitment. Which is why when the discussion boards get too negative you start seeing the management stooges posting on here.

We’ve heard it will just be on the CA side and will have PBS attached to it. The FOs will stay with the current pay until hiring hits 0.

I’m about 95% sure it will be done without a vote. Our MEC chair has said he doesn’t have to bring anything to vote. So it’s coming just we don’t know when we’ll get an email saying “New LOA for Pay and PBS Benefits”...

Only way I think we all get pay across the board is when all WO hiring takes a major hit. But with y’alls huge full classes and ours full it will be a long time.

Well CA pay scale is a good start. Envoy is short CAs not FOs.

And I’m fine with PBS attached. I won’t be here much longer. Either I’ll get a call or flow in a year.

When was your hire date? What is your current best guess as to a flow month/year?

Might be hard to answer. Most CA’s I know that were set to flow in the next 10-12 months have slowly had that date moved farther out. The ones that had flow dates closer at two years out basically just throw their hands up because our management has no issue violating the flow agreement.

To try and answer though I believe the latest flows were 2006 hires.

Flying with a guy who flows in the next class, February 6. He was hired in May of 2006. He also says he believes that there are 25 Envoy flows in his class. Doesn’t project anything for the future but that’s better than the 16 or 17 that were in the last class.

Early 2008 guy. At 25 a month for 11 months I’m looking at roughly a year.

But apps are out and updated regularly.

Well that’s good news I guess. Hopefully that trend continues.