Hiring rumors
 

Hey a friend of friend said they were told during the interview that Envoy is placing a freeze on hiring and told to reapply in 30 days. Anyone hear anything on this?

Makes sense. They're capping all new hire classes for the foreseeable future. Pipeline is probably full at the moment. At least on the new hire/FO side.

So what would all of this mean for someone with a class date in the next three months? How long to get off reserve? How long to get back to DFW?

Yes. No. Yes.

Pardon my ignorance, but what sense does a hiring freeze make?

sure, perhaps if they are fat on FOs a hiring freeze for FOs... but a hiring freeze all around?

smells of fish

Compass had a year long hiring freeze that just ended. They are now feeling the painful effects from it with how short on FOs they are. It was also painful for the guys hired just prior to the freeze.

I could see a 4 month or 6 month hiring freeze on FOs while doing everything in your power to soak up HVAs perhaps.

i dunno. seems strange.

It’s simple math given the email R.W. sent out showing the proposed expansion of lines if the rumors above of hiring freeze are true.

They need more captains in order to staff the expansion of lines.

They’ve pretty much tapped out the forced upgrades in-house, there will only be a slow trickle of FO’s hitting upgrade requirements. Just guessing here, but it’s pribably not high enough rate to meet the rate of proposed expansion shown in R.W’s email late last year.

Most likely if there is in fact a hiring freeze (as per the rumors above), they’ll only be picking up the cadets and RTP guys until they can even out the Captain side of the house.

I wonder how long until the HVA candidate pool dries up? My guess is they banked on a lot more people jumping at the $45k signing bonus than have actually shown interest or come on board. I personally know of 5 guys that interviewed and went to EDV instead (2 of which were referrals), makes financial sense for them given the hourly rates.

Also don’t forget the 25 or so CA’s per month flowing off the top.

is it an expansion with more lines out of an existing base or is it a new base they are shooting for?

i'm a gnats a$$ from deciding that im out as an HVA altogether, it doesnt make sense to sit junior for my entire time at envoy when i could go in as an FO at another regional and be a captain in a year and have nobody upgrading over my head.

Be careful with that. The problem with not enough CAs is no longer unique to Envoy. Skywest apparently is beginning to feel it as well. I’m sure others are going to follow pretty soon.

It’s expansion on lines at existing bases.

At LGA as just one example, The email shows roughly 40% increase on lines. Same goes for a bunch of other bases.

The lineholders of the expansion of lines will mostly be taken up by FO’s who built up their hours with the company (circa mid to late 2016 early 2017 new hires) as they trickle out the other end of uograde training.

Look at Mesa, one year upgrade supposedly.

Endeavor isnt doing forced upgrades (yet)

any of them could resort to that at any time, but whats better... to be 50-100 spots up the seniority list when you get CA, or be at the bottom and get it?

It's not a hiring freeze all around. It's to cap the number of FOs coming in that aren't near upgrade time. We are fat on FOs and don't have the Captains. Limiting the number of FOs in order to snag high time guys to upgrade and allow sim time for current FOs to upgrade. Here is an excerpt from an ALPA email addressing this:

Rumor Control – New Hire Class Sizes
Of late, much has been made about the last new hire class being 'only' 31 pilots, down from what seems to be a perceived "normal" of well over 50. While, a class of 31 isn't abnormally below the numbers we've seen over the average of the last year, the company has indicated their ability/desire to transition towards smaller numbers in each class. Given the lack of captain-qualified first officers, it doesn't make sense to over-populate the ranks of first officers. In today's environment, we can't imagine the company furloughing FOs, however that is exactly what we would be looking at if they continued to hire 100+ pilots per month (as FOs) and were unable to upgrade a similar number of Captains. The operation would quickly become lopsided, and furloughs could result.

We continue to advocate with management that they recognize the value in compensating our pilots as the industry's leaders, along with recognizing our commitment and sacrifice to AAG by providing unmatched career progression, to create an organic path from newhire to FO to CA. But, until management has a tangible reason to change their attitude towards what matters most to the pilots, there's no logical business reason (in management's eyes) to change what they believe is working for them. And since their classes are full, there is little attrition, and the operation is as dependable as ever, there is little incentive for change.

Rather than make economic and QOL improvements that inspire pilots to upgrade at the first chance, they have chosen to simply throttle-down newhire classes. With fewer new FOs, the Company is better able to match the number of newhires with the small number of FOs that can be involuntarily assigned to CA each month.

Despite the uphill battle, the Envoy MEC will never stop fighting for what's best for our pilots, and each Envoy pilot should never sell themselves short of what they deserve.

Bottom line, this company doesn't need more FOs. They need CAs.

It seems like you decided that long ago. I'm not sure why you're still so incredibly hung up on the idea. You see through the BS of the HVA, so why not just let it go. Plenty of other viable options out there. Hats off to you for not getting suckered into it. Now, just move on past and head somewhere else that is more promising for your situation.

thats pretty obvious.

i hope Envoy finds what its looking for.

dont mean to give the impression that im "hung up on the idea"... im certainly not that.

however, the more i can learn about whats going on, the better informed i'll be.

information i had when i started this pursuit was that upgrades were a year, then they dropped to 6 months so i applied, then i get there and its instant.

but if my discussions here help others in my shoes make their choice as well, what does it hurt?

stuff that makes you go hmmm

That sinking feeling when you realize that hiring cap/freeze rumors might be true and you're the last guy in the door and probably going to have the LGA/145 2 leg commute, eternal reserve gun to your head.

lol.Time to hide the sign-on bonus in an offshore account, and jump ship to 9E.

Coolaid tastes like salt water now

If your friend of a friend was told to reapply in 30 days then he or she failed the interview...plain and simple. People who pass never hear those words. No truth to this rumor.

Agreed, why would they bring you into an interview just to say we aren’t hiring and to reapply in 30 days. Doesn’t add up.

Sounds like a more legit story.

I'm an RTP guy and been waiting a month for the final captains board. Is this why I have been waiting so long?

No they’re probably swamped working through the applicants ahead of you in order.

Check your spam folder. A month and a half went by before I contacted the recruiters about this same issue. Turns out I went through the board a week after I interviewed and the CJO was in my spam folder for a month and a half.

More than likely not. There are many things that can slow that process down. More times than not, they're waiting on paperwork to come back from your prior employers. There's no telling what they could be waiting on.

Just keep in mind that many people on the forums right now are encouraging people like you to go somewhere else with the goal of forcing management to the negotiating table for higher pay rates. Many on here aren’t trying to give you a balanced viewpoint (perhaps with the exception of Pedro4President).

:D

I'm sure anyone getting brought in now w/ a 4 yr degree and a decent shot at street hire @ the majors after a few years of being a good boy or girl at X regional is wondering whether Endeavor would have been a better choice, especially with the flow through carrot getting so far out on the fishing pole.

To be fair there’s both extremes of views being put forward. As we all know it’s usually somewhere in the middle.

The place is what you make it. There’s some things that need improving, and there’s things that are pretty good about the place. It all depends on what you want in your job and what is realistic while working here.

At the end of the day, the biggest factor determining your experience at Envoy is timing, much like any other airline.

Management? Is that you?

Well that’s not my fight. Regional guys have been trying to get pay raises on the table forever. Meh pay scale is what it is. I’ve never had those delusions

I’ve valued all the input I’ve received here and elsewhere. Envoy has good people working there for the most part. I think more than anything that’s what I would value is a good crew.

I just wish I was coming in at a time when the house was in a little better order. Swing gear for 6-12 months and upgrade in order of proper seniority.

I’m not one of those that’s above throwing gear for a 28 year old captain.

Sad thing is I think I’d fit in with the pilot group at Envoy pretty well. The bases are good, so is the equipment.

But I’m not willing to sit reserve for most of my career there. Which is what I’m being asked to do.

Just to be clear my decision is made, Ive discussed it with my family and other pilots and the deal isn’t attractive. But I can still contribute to the conversation I think.

Bad timing. Just too bad.

They’re going to have to throw more then just a 45k bonus and death sentence to LGA to attract any street captains. Especially now that instant upgrades are becoming the norm everywhere like Endeavor and Skywest.

You’re right.

Why go to instant captain seat and be perpetually hundreds of numbers junior when you can go somewhere else and sit right seat and upgrade into a halfway reasonable quality of life?

Don’t even have to sit right seat. Endeavor you can go straight to captain in Atlanta with way better reserve rules and making 80+ an hour plus a 10k bonus.

Skywest lets you take your pay seniority with you. So say someone has been at a different regional for 3 years and has 1,000 121 time you can go there and start at third year captain pay right away.

Envoy has to fix their reserve system and or increase their hourly rates. To attract anyone eligible to be a street captain.

So you live in DFW. I don't see why you wouldn't go anywhere but Envoy.

I think/heard from a friend RW recently said at a CA upgrade dinner we need 400 HVA over two years. All you need is about 50 below you to hold a line in LGA. How long will that take? Who knows. It all depends on how many HVAs join you at Envoy after you. If they hit that number then your QOL will not be as bad as you are expecting. Once you get back to DFW then your QOL will sky rocket. The main question is "How long will you suffer before it gets bearable?" No one can give you an accurate answer. I personally think you would be back to DFW in 12-18 months. But I could be completely wrong.

All I can tell you is that commuting to reserve for Envoy is the absolute worst. Reserve living in base is the absolute best. (Or at least it is right now.) It doesn't matter if you are junior or senior it still sucks.

When reading the horror stories and the positive stories, know that they are both likely true, but likely infrequent or short lived.

Here lies the problem. They want 400 HVAs over two years. No where do they indicate wanting to improve QOL for the pilot group or acknowledge the horrible QOL HVAs will endure if they have to commute to NY. HVA's only saving grace is getting more HVA's in below them and I think we're still too early to tell whether or not the program will work.

Absolutely agree!!

I honestly believe that all they have to do is raise the CA rates to match Endeavor’s, and they’d have the CA problem fixed. There would be no shortage of HVA’s waiting in line and many of the the senior FO’s bidding reserve (to avoid hitting 1000) would finish their time and upgrade.

wait...

they want 16 HVAs coming aboard per month for the next 24 months?

what are the FOs on property doing??? Envoy cant have that many FOs that are that far out to 1000 hours.

Surely there are at least a few hundred that are within weeks if not a month or two of hitting the time?

EDIT:

assuming you get all 400, thats $18,000,000 in bonuses paid out

offer your high time FOs the $45,000 bonus, pay them 150% for each hour needed to hit 1,000 hours, force their upgrade and base change, once they are there pay them at 200-300% per hour for the next 12 months in the base they didint want and return them to normal payscale when they bid base change or hit 12 months whichever comes first

They shot the wad with the last bid. There’s surely a handful of FO’s close and eager for that 4th stripe, but most are doing everything in their power to avoid hitting 1000.