Several grievances have been filed. Problem is, an arbitrator won’t get around to hearing the case anytime soon.

I will wait with bated breath. . .

Meanwhile, does half of all hiring at peak retirement make any sense that a realistic contract negotiator would sign up to? Would Envoy sign up to voluntary corporate suicide for themsleves? Would AA let them do that? Use your head.

In your scenario they would meter to 25. They should not be metering with part time lines

It wasn't voluntary, it was bargained for. They got a lot of gains for giving us that flow. They were clueless to the realities of the pilot shortage at that time so it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't think it would be an issue. Pretty sure Pedro was on record as saying he'd park airplanes if necessary. They didn't think they would have to but they did say that.

They did park 50 airplanes aka 140’s and decide to bring them back.

That was during the time period when the company was telling us we were going to go out of business in 3 yrs and people were bouncing for a street captain gig at psa or tsa. Not because more guys were flowing out of the goodness of their hearts. Ps. My understanding is that they wanted to shrink us to the same size as psa and piedmont.

Here is an additional perspective. If the interpretation is half or 25 each month, which ever is GREATER was correct:

Think about the case where hiring (after a black swan event or some other decision by AA) was 10 per month.

Using this interpretation, Envoy would be required to flow 25 and AA would be forced to accept that number, because it was the greater of half of 10 (flow of 5) or flow of 25. Again, use your head. That makes no sense.

If, on the other hand, it was half or 25 each month, which ever is LESS was correct, Envoy would be required to flow 5. That makes good sense.

Can’t say it enough. QOL. QOL. I personally don’t know anyone who wants to sit LGA RSV for 2 years, not for any amount of money.

And I agree with this as well. Even Chick-fil-A made working at a fast food restaurant a lot better with a corporate attitude that brings out the best in all employees and offers incredible opportunities. But then again they’ve been the focus of business excellence and innovation at Harvard and other elite business schools. AAG is a case study on what not to do.

He looked us all in the face and swore they’d park planes if they had to. A few of us asked for it in writing in the CBA, didn’t happen, told the lawyers this would happen.

LCC’s aren't the only show in town anymore either. Check the ACMI’s.
Several like Atlas, Omni and Kalitta are better than LCC’s in my opinion. Atlas is in the middle of getting a new CBA and should make out very well.
Home basing
No ready reserve
No crashpads
Long call from home
Daily pay guarantee
Business class or better on International flights over 3 hours. Omni is currently the industry highest first year pay at $113 ph. First year pay - depending what equipment and program you go into - is $87k to $108k. Upgrade under 3 years. Top step $297 ph
Schedules are typically one long trip or two short ones. Last year average was 14 days away from home per month for pilots. Friends at all three like it. Their time at home is theirs, no junior manning from home. They don’t have to plan commutes, or jumpseat, they keep all the air miles and are executive platinum, they keep hotel points too.

No excuse to put up with the BS anymore....

I've relegated myself to lurker status since i didnt take the Envoy gig and have been staying out of these threads since, but out of curiosity, how many HVAs you guys getting?

i passed up the HVA offer out of the fear that i would be obligating myself to long term Junior Manning in LGA or ORD. Been there, done that, not worth $100,000 bonus let alone $45,000 bonus.

I only butt into the conversation because surely enough HVA folks out there can do that math

Sources I have is nothing more then a trickle. 2 or 3 per class. Will probably be less in the future as more regionals are offering street captain gigs

Dilly Dilly

There were 12 or 13 last class weren't there? Are there any actually here on the forum?

Obviously in your scenario they wouldn't send more than AA hires. It makes sense that envoy would want the lesser of the two but that is not what was bargained for. Just what they hope they can get.

Here's some common sense thinking. If the company was so sure it was the lesser why would they have come to the negotiating table during the grievance arbitration. They would just let it play out and the arbitrator would rule in their favor. However they are clearly negotiating with the union. So maybe it's not so cut and dry as to what the ruling would be. Does that make good sense?

[;QUOTE=Azorian;2579500]I've relegated myself to lurker status since i didnt take the Envoy gig and have been staying out of these threads since, but out of curiosity, how many HVAs you guys getting?

i passed up the HVA offer out of the fear that i would be obligating myself to long term Junior Manning in LGA or ORD. Been there, done that, not worth $100,000 bonus let alone $45,000 bonus.

I only butt into the conversation because surely enough HVA folks out there can do that math[/QUOTE]

I remember you and your thoughtful questions .....you came up with the right answer. Pilots and employees are at the bottom related to their business decisions which explains in part numorus grievance filings by the union. Even in the CP office....walk in....they are friendly on the surface but distain is in the air. I typed up my resignation letter and dated 2 years from my sign on bonus date. I carry it with me now. I’m convinced Envoy possess an overdose of arrogance and will dismiss me immediately saving me $$$ in bonus repayment.

If the GREATER is the way the agreement states, it would put them in violation by not sending more than AA would be hiring. We both agree that is foolish. Yet the pilots legitimately could go to grievance claiming a violation and be awarded damages. That adds more to the rationale that interpretation is incorrect.

No, your second point does not make good sense. You are implying a cause and effect relationship that is not necessarily there. At the current rate, there is a 8 year flow (assuming no attrition). Once the Protected Pilots finish flowing, it slows to a 14 year flow (again assuming no attrition).

Yet in the next few years it is estimated the overall hiring from the regionals will grow to one fifth of the total pilots a year, the equivalent of a 5 year flow. To stay competitive and have usefulness for recruiting, they need to have something in that range. Pilots would laugh at a 14 year flow.

This would cause Envoy and AA to want to renegotiate the rate for the future. This is a driver in their self interest to want to negotiate with the union.

You sure are putting a spin on the flow. Bottom line is the company will ALWAYS do the minimum or LESS. As evidenced in the start of the thread, a two month hiatus in the flow is a setback Envoy pilots won't ever get back. Company may promise to catch up but highly unlikely.

You must be new to Envoy. I would have my apps out everywhere and trying everything possible to get out. Flow is a gimmick beyond anyone inside of a year out.

I understand you are very bitter with Envoy (as you have stated here) and went to work for Alligent a couple of years ago. I trust you are happier there.

I have tried to share factual information and reasonable rationale. You repeatedly disagree with me and say I have rose colored glasses. That’s okay, we likely will never agree. I have no need to continue to debate you.

Incidentally, I am not new to Envoy.

Aiming on coming over to help you guys out. We”ll see how it shakes out.

If your looking at DEC check out PDT. Virtually the same deal but no LGA.

Thank you sir!

It's OK. Keep on drooling over Envoy and its industry leading work rules, mainline 175s and.....flow. I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed soon.

Just because he’s bitter doesn’t mean he isn’t right

The reason why they can't attract enough "High Value Aviators" is because they think a 45K bonus is enough to get people to come over from a place like EDV, eventhough your actual CA pay is well less than EDV's. If they matched or exceeded EDV's pay (which AA certainly has the money for) as well as offering the bonus, you'd get your captains as well as force Delta to sh1t a brick when they started losing their soon to be captains that have 1000 hours and are just waiting for a vacancy/class date.

If you not new at envoy then as they say you have your head stuck far in the sand. My friend, you buy the recruiter information like it is straight from Bible. Be wise and look inside and at fact instead. You have disease my friend and we here to help you put it behind.

I appreciate all the feedback on my naïveté and inexperience. I have neither. My statement of the lesser of half or 25 is still correct. The greater of half or 25, as I have shown here, makes no sense in reality, as much as some people believe. At both very few hires and at peak hiring it results in unacceptable consequences. In mathematical terms it would be said, “it blows up”.

The summary of the contract is confusing. It appears to say greater not lesser of the two. That is not how it has been implemented. From a logical thought process, completely devoid of Envoy salesmanship, lesser makes sense as something realistic to be implemented.

Some people are letting their emotions or desires get the best of them, without thinking this through.

Or maybe some people refrain from publicly posting opinion adverse to the grievance filed in order to not potentially weaken our position during negotiations and/or a potential future arbitration. People need to quit negotiating in public.

I'm not sure what TransWorld's agenda is or who he works for, but his understanding of the contract is fundamentally flawed. 50 percent is 50 percent.

If we are so short CAs, then why isn't every CA status declared critical coverage for the whole month?

My thoughts exactly. DFW 145 hasn’t seen critical coverage in many months.

No kidding...fingers crossed its coming soon

If you are wondering, no I do not work in management for Envoy, AA, nor any airline.

My agenda is to present factual information and get people to think logically. That is all.

If ‘50 percent is 50 percent’, when AA retirements hit peak (in 5 years), half of all their hires are estimated to be 800 pilots. Aside from lifers, that would mean Envoy would lose about 80% of their flowable CA in just one year. Great for those CAs.

Mull it over silently, without posting here. Is it sustainable? What would happen? What are the ramifications for the rest of the pilots that fly for Envoy?

My goal is not to have a debate. My goal is to get people to think things through, looking at the numbers.

Here’s a realistic question, with all the other legacies along with cargo and decent other airlines having the same level of retirements, where do you think these pilots are going to come from?

At peak, in about 5 years, I estimate 1 in 5 regional pilots will be hired each year by the majors. 80% of the flow interested CA at Envoy each year would be significantly higher than that average. (Quick math - 20% of all the regional pilots vs. 40% of the Envoy pilots in a year.)

I previously have stated here my crystal ball prediction:

Within 5 to 10 years there will be 1/4 of the regionals still around with 1/2 the total number of regional pilots.

A lot of 50 seaters will be parked, with fewer per day 76 seaters taking their place.

Some of the 76 seaters will be replaced by the 100-120 seaters (CS100 etc) flown by the majors. The majors may even take back some of the 76 seaters flying. Kind of real speculation on that.

Finally, I predict some civilian pilots will be hired directly by the majors, without working for the regionals nor the military, just like they used to in the 1950s-1960s.

When CFI find they can get hired directly at FO Group I (Using AA terminology) pay at the majors and the regionals start paying something close to that, there will be a lot aspiring pilots applying. (Economics 101 says when starting pay like burger flippers at McDonalds transitions to near 100K starting pay; pay commencerate with the professional occupation, lots of people will choose the career.) Pay for a cadet program of some sort may enter the picture for thousand of those aspiring pilots.

Check back in a decade to see the accuracy of my predictions.

I will now put my crystal ball away.

I think you’re underestimating the suck of all other carriers that will have to pay up as their pilots retire and/or get mwdicalled out or just have had enough.

Regionals will be on life support in about 2-3 years time. The fact that just about every regional is hiring street right now CA’s is telling and just the start of the house of cards.

I agree with you, basically what I said. That is why I said the majors will be hiring some amount of 23 year old CFI directly off the street at Group I rates (currently FO starting at $88/hour). The remaining regionals will have to double their current FO rates to something like that to stay in the game.

The number of pilots working for the regional airlines will greatly reduce. Regionals will consolidate or go out of business. (Island Air and Great Lakes are just the tip of the iceberg.) if you want my projection of who survives PM me.

The industry will finally get enough new hires when the pay goes up a large amount. If someone gets that much shortly after college, it will be a starting pay more than the average engineers, scientists, pharmacists, accountants, and lawyers. Only doctors will get paid more. Of course, a pilot’s view out the office window is more impressive, as well. ;)

Problem is the they won’t be able to train them quick enough.

100 seaters will be the new 50-75 seaters, hopefully with regionals dying. It’s simple numbers, regional managers are only trying to keep costs down right now to keep their jobs. Pretty soon the inevitable will happen and we will be too expensive to justify all the extra infrastructure.

It might take 2-3 years to pan out but it’s going to happen. The fact we are bringing ****ty old 140’s out of the desert proves AA is simply being reactive and stalling because they’re waiting to see how the cookie crumbles which actually makes a modicum of business sense in the short term.

And it’s not only pilots, it’s license mechanics too.

TransWorlds mistake is looking at the contract with today’s glasses. The language was written YEARS ago. Different world back then. We were going to be shut down within 3 years back then and they needed us to swallow a **** contract with a flow cherry on top. My view TransWorld is you can **** already

My money is on TransWorld being either:

A. Envoy management
Or
B. Envoy recruiter