CA Shortage Critical
 

HVA program not working. Word on the street is cancelled summer vacations and a short term suspension of the flow (June, July)

The moment they mess with the flow, a lot of us, including me, are out of here.

8 threads down the list. This topic was brought up. Do you people not read the titles of other threads? You simply had to look 8 spaces down.....

Same here.....even if it is only 1 to 2 months. That is just the start. What will they do during the holiday months etc? Once flow is messed with they will never stop.

I recently started updating my logbook and getting my resume ready. My apps will be out the day they announce a slow of the flow. Enough.

AA has 25 classes schedule for this year. Every two weeks except nothing around Christmas. Same as last year, and the year before. . .

HVA isn’t working because nobody wants to go sit 2 years of reserve in LGA. I don’t see why they don’t offer home based lines for LGA flying. Seems like the cost of an A1 ticket to/from work would be a small price to pay to properly staff the CA side of the airline.

Doesn't help having to sit standby out of a crashpad when you are a reserve captain for 2 years. Maybe if they fix the reserve system as well. Just kidding. We know that'll never happen.

I am not saying AA will stop classes, I am saying once envoy stops the flow it will happen again and again.

Sorry I misinterpreted your statement “during the holiday months”. Not certain why Envoy would stop flow specifically during the holiday months (compared to any other time), assume you have a rationale for that.

Well give them hotel rooms as well. Basically a TDY

Envoy knows that if they mess with the flow the resignations would be unbearable. I seriously doubt they are willing to play with fire. They rather junior man you than mess with the flow.

Unfortunately the negotiations have yielded low ball offers as far as reserve goes. It would help to lock in some long call and an opportunity for A passes for reserves commute to work. It would make for better recruiting carrots. Money doesn’t seem to be the answer that many have hoped would be for solving this Captain puzzle. Also, doesn’t help we ran out all the low value aviators during bankruptcy negotiations.

What are you smoking? Money is the answer, in pay rates and not in form of a bonus in addition to better reserve rules.

Street CA’s aren’t coming here because they can get better money elsewhere.

Not true. Clearly you don’t know who we are hiring. Many are prior 121 who left for corporate who are now trying to kick start their legacy carrier after many years of no interview offers. They are leaving good paying jobs to take a pay cut and work here. There are some FO laterals too, but not as many as you think. QOL and Flow are most important here and now

My inside sources indicate that while it is true that a number of HVA's have shown up, there just aren't enough when projecting out through the summer. AAG continues to want to add flying at Envoy and the numbers do not work. In other words, critical mass will be reached very soon thus the vacation cancellations per contract and a temporary halt to the flow for the months of June and July, also per the contract (operational necessity), will likely be announced in the coming weeks.

Also, I read above that AA has no slowdown of classes. That is also true. The problem is on the Envoy side where the shortage of Captain's has reached a critical level, especially when taking the summer flying schedule into consideration.

I’m sure we are only getting those guys currently. The reason why we aren’t getting more Expressjet, tsa, and other disgruntleds is that they can’t justify coming here and making less if they are “good enough” to get hired at a higher paying place. Example: if Envoy went tits up tomorrow and you were resigned to commuting would you choose Mesa or endeavor? Ans: endeavor. And that’s why their classes are all full.
Our pay may not be matched yet because envoy knows there is a few months before open endeavor classes. Perhaps they figure some high value aviators may choose not to wait on a class and we can get them cheap

Well the writing on the wall has been clear for sometime now in regards to a shortage.

Envoy has had sufficient time to take the measures to mitigate the circumstances that they're currently in and they've currently shot themselves in the foot by not being proactive in the recruiting process.

Word gets around quick about what's going on around here so why would anyone in their right mind want to make a lateral move here when majors are hiring, ULCC's are hiring and thensome.

More and more people are jumping to the likes of Spirit due to their new contract and Frontier for the better pay amongst other things.

Pay/QOL is a MAJOR issue. We all know this. Flow is right up there too.

But watch more people catch on going to these other carriers, skipping Flow and getting to AA faster.

Somethings gotta give, and hopefully it comes sooner than later, especially for those who've been on property longer than me that still have 2-3 years before they flow.

I would personally expect that when this announcement is made, it would be highly stressed as temporary and only for op necessity. The stress on temporary would likely be mentioned several times. I would also expect something along the lines of a promise to catch back up later in the year perhaps.

Not to beat a dead horse any further into the ground, but I know for a fact that myself and a lot of other FOs in my position would be busting our butts to get into the left seat if it was something to be desired. The pay raise is a freakin pittance and QOL immediately tanks (for longer too), oh and now you're the one with the company and passengers breathing down your neck and everyone looks to you for the answers.

The way this company treats its pilots is such a joke. Good grief, the foreign pilot mill flight school that I used to work at was better than this. This type of management/operations relationship is NOT something you should see in a profession of this caliber. The only other time that I've been part of a work group that was treated like this was working on a factory floor building RVs. We really shouldn't put up with this.

I know "this job is a stepping stone" and "just get your time and get out", but that doesn't mean it has to be a ********y place to work. That's a stupid justification and is really just letting the heads off the hook when you say something like that. Look at Spirit. They just turned into a much bigger career destination than they used to be. You'd have more lifers, better recruits to select from, a happier work group, better experiences for the customer, etc, if life was improved here. That's how you grow a company; not with signing bonuses.

If this stepping stone becomes the slimiest one around, people will stop stepping on it.

Well said and I agree with almost all of it, except the part about lifers. Envoy doesn't want lifers because like most things, they don't want to pay. I am sure the math has been done and they know exactly how long to keep you employed here so as to maximize your benefit while minimizing your overall financial impact on the company.

They're already messing with flow.

Let's not forget that it was the company that put themselves in this position. I would argue that it can't be considered "operational necessity" when the company purposely ran out half the pilot group and put themselves in this mess. In the event that this actually happens, maybe it is finally our wake up call to band together.

I've been just this side of the fence regarding Spirit since their new contract. If Envoy cancels my summer vacation, I'll be going to Spirit as soon as they'll have me.

If this is true, what is our strategy moving forward? I highly doubt we’ll see many resignations. But I could be wrong

Why wait? And there is no guarantee that Spirit will hire you. I applied there and was turned down. Allegiant offered me a job instead and I took it. I make less than a Spirit CA now but I am at least in the left seat making double what an Envoy CA makes, without the horrendous QOL issues that are present there.

I'm not sure how long you've been at Envoy, but if you don't have apps out to all the majors and LCCs and actively pursuing options, you are doing yourself a disservice. Waiting on the flow at Envoy is like watching paint dry. Just think, if you had applied to Spirit one year ago and were hired, you would now have around 300 people junior to you and would be making $104/hour.

If you can't get in to Spirit, try Frontier. Why? Because they are like Spirit, only a year or a bit more behind. They will get a contract and it will be on par with Spirit. It might prove easier to get in with Frontier now when there is less competition as it was at Spirit a year or more ago. Now, you have to put your app against guys with high qualifications such as a lot of PIC and perhaps a checkairman or instructor position to boot.

Can you share a couple of specific examples?

One example is metering to 25 no matter what. The contract states half of AA classes will be Envoy through the end of the PP group. With the large numbered classes over the past year and looking at retirements and class sizes going forward, Envoy pilots come out on the losing end.

As an example, say the classes are 60/month all year. With the metering to 25, 60 Envoy pilots during this hypothetical year would be denied their flow and place on the AA seniority list.

As we all know, the airline pilot life is built on seniority. It's not good enough just to eventually make it to AA when hundreds of guys come off the street above you because Envoy managers decided to interpret the contract to their benefit and not yours.

I’m tired of rampant speculation and tax advice from pilots and know nothings. Do you know something? If so lay it out there. Everyone knows already that I know nothing but I try not to give advice I know nothing about.




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Thanks for bringing your perspective over here, ag. The LCC route has always interested me, especially because of Allegiant's Phoenix-Mesa base in my back yard.

Cadet Academy | American Airlines

I'll leave this right here...

How is this any different from what’s already going on?

Offering the lending?

The flight instructors are called AA cadets.

They all ready are. At least at the school I went to.

Why wait? Get your apps in now. If/when someone calls for an interview and gives you a job offer, THEN decide whether or not to stay with Envoy and what they do with the flow. If you wait, it is that much more seniority gone by.

From our perspective as pilots, it is. But the company would have to pay EVERYONE more if they raise pay. Why should the raise pay and pay DFW or ORD captains more when they can continue to band aid things for much less? Forced upgrades, HVAs, TDYs, junior man, canceled vacations and squeezing the flow all cost much less.

Why do these threads even start up. These threads are just as annoying as the company saying flow in 5.5 years.

The only good advice put out in this thread is to have your apps out. We know there will be an uptick in attrition if they mess with the flow. Why are we complaining and worrying about something that hasn't even happened.

You could argue that... but you’d be wrong and you’d lose. The real problem is approving a “contract” with terms like operational necessity that are undefined. ****ty contracts with ambiguous language are impossible to enforce especially in an arbitration environment. We need to git gud at writing contracts aka lawyer up. This is what happens when non-lawyers write “contracts”.

We have had this discussion before. The wording is terribly confusing. Smarter minds than I on the agreement have stated the full wording legally means half or 25, whichever is LESS. They say your interpretation is mistaken.

As the summary APPEARS to be worded, it is half or 25, whichever is GREATER. (I wish it was worded more clearly.)

Let’s say at peak retirement AA hires 160 per month (within the realm of possibility). This interpretation would mean 80 Envoy Pilots would flow every month. At that rate, pretty much every non-lifer CA would flow in a year. That would cause Envoy to completely collapse. Ask yourself, would this be what the contractual people would have agreed upon? It would not make sense.

Further, if this interpretation is correct, where is the greavance / lawsuit?