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Once the “bad apples” are identified at the WO, what is AAG contractually allowed to do to keep the “bad apples” from flowing to mainline?
Isn’t there a correlation between regional pay & “bad apples”? In other words, don’t higher paying regional airlines get ‘pick of the litter’ generally and, therefore, less “bad apples” so the most effective way to keep “bad apples” from flowing to mainline is by keeping WO regional pay competive with the top-paying regionals to minimize the “bad apples” that enter the WO? (Location of bases versus where indivudal pilots want to live muddies these waters some, but higher pay at regionals generally means a higher caliber pilot group, right?)
Originally Posted by SilentLurker
(Post 2688375)
No.
No. AAG wants the majority of their pilot pool from its WO. They check more than PRIA records & employment records before flow/Indoc just like any other mainline. AAG has advantages by having flows from its WO. AAG is very smart in having a no interview flow. They entrust their WO regional recruiting department. They know everything about its WO pilot’s history. Data collection through saber and other programs in the training department is huge! From detailed training records and sim performances to weaknesses and strengths. From attendance record to details regarding disciplinary issues with CPO. From Sick time usage and troubles to line item data like on-time DP to fuel score card, to many other things you can imagine but are unaware that is data driven and tracked since WO NEW HIRE CLASS DATE. Im sure even your Line Check Airmen’s comments and scores in Saber are accessible/transferable to AAG. Overa AAG knows who they are getting and have a recorded history of behavior patter and how that pilot will fly at Mainline, how they will learning and how they will perform, or if they will have performance regressions, etc. Most of this is what I have heard from multiple sources. Overall Mainline knows the bad apples when they flow before they step foot at Mainline Indoc. The flow benefits mainline in a great way. Overall word is they are very pleased with the large majority of WO Pilots performance not only at the regional level, but when they arrive at mainline training, during IOE, and during probation, and while on the Line. More so than military and non-WO who are unfamiliar with the operations and have to take a bit long time getting adjusted. AA WO have overall knowledge of the operation similar & almost identical to AA FM-1 as WO FM-1,. From what i know WO Pilots, especially Envoy, are told to relax and to let go of the PTSD treatment they received from regional flight operations and scheduling at Envoy. AAG is not worried about the quality of Pilots. The WO are churning out great pilots for AAG’s operation. The WO regional carriers have a great training programs, many rumors and feedbacks from those that have flowed are that WO training programs are even tougher than mainline. Overall Line flying experiences from great captains and ALPA’s safety programs have produce high quality aviators & top notch training departments & overall safety records at Envoy, PDT, PSA. AA Mainline seems to trust its WO (ENY PSA PDT) production and product representation & integration unlike UA & DL which has to test/re-interview its aspirants from EDV-Delta/CPP Regionals-United already flying it’s products and customers which to me is TURD IN THE FACE. |
If you see AAG making the assumption that WO pilots won’t be able to leave for jobs at other legacies or WN (or other quality major/LCC opportunities), is it fair to say that you believe WO compensation will always be significantly lower than the top-paying regional airlines and roughly as they are currently, relatively speaking? (ie, if top-paying regionals are paying 1st year FO’s $50-55 per hour as they are today, then the WO’s will never pay more than than $38-ish per hour for 1st year FO’s?)
Originally Posted by Otterbox
(Post 2688378)
AAG cares about cost efficiencies in its work force. Their goal is to get the job done as cheaply as possible, with quality a secondary consideration.
As far as being worried about people leaving, part of the WO setup is the idea that folks recruited into the WO won’t want to/ be able to leave, so they get 12 years of them working at a discount rate as a WO pilot and the rest of their career at AA working at a rate that’s lower than their peers at Delta et al. |
Originally Posted by fenix1
(Post 2688925)
If you see AAG making the assumption that WO pilots won’t be able to leave for jobs at other legacies or WN (or other quality major/LCC opportunities), is it fair to say that you believe WO compensation will always be significantly lower than the top-paying regional airlines and roughly as they are currently, relatively speaking? (ie, if top-paying regionals are paying 1st year FO’s $50-55 per hour as they are today, then the WO’s will never pay more than than $38-ish per hour for 1st year FO’s?)
WO recruitment is heavily focused on folks who don’t have a college degree, wish to spend their aviation careers in a geographic location that coincides with AA bases, cadet programs, and RTP programs... folks that are less likely to leave once they settle in to the left seat of the plane. Some folks choose to go to an AA WO for the flow through because of hiccups in their training/flying/criminal records or employment history, but it does an injustice to characterize them as “bad apples”. Most of those folks had their choice of regionals when applying as does everyone else and chose to go to a regional with a flow as an insurance plan to get to a Legacy carrier. |
Many bad apples have already gone to AA. Anytime someone starts talking about a terrible pilot (skills or personality), the second sentence is always "they're at AA now."
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When does ENY’s current contract expire? When will negotiations start on the next contract?
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Originally Posted by fenix1
(Post 2690587)
When does ENY’s current contract expire? When will negotiations start on the next contract?
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I wonder if new hourly rates are cost neutral if we factor in how much flying we turn down because we dont have staffing!
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Originally Posted by SilentLurker
(Post 2688375)
No.
No. AAG wants the majority of their pilot pool from its WO. They check more than PRIA records & employment records before flow/Indoc just like any other mainline. AAG has advantages by having flows from its WO. AAG is very smart in having a no interview flow. They entrust their WO regional recruiting department. They know everything about its WO pilot’s history. Data collection through saber and other programs in the training department is huge! From detailed training records and sim performances to weaknesses and strengths. From attendance record to details regarding disciplinary issues with CPO. From Sick time usage and troubles to line item data like on-time DP to fuel score card, to many other things you can imagine but are unaware that is data driven and tracked since WO NEW HIRE CLASS DATE. Im sure even your Line Check Airmen’s comments and scores in Saber are accessible/transferable to AAG. Overa AAG knows who they are getting and have a recorded history of behavior patter and how that pilot will fly at Mainline, how they will learning and how they will perform, or if they will have performance regressions, etc. Most of this is what I have heard from multiple sources. Overall Mainline knows the bad apples when they flow before they step foot at Mainline Indoc. The flow benefits mainline in a great way. Overall word is they are very pleased with the large majority of WO Pilots performance not only at the regional level, but when they arrive at mainline training, during IOE, and during probation, and while on the Line. More so than military and non-WO who are unfamiliar with the operations and have to take a bit long time getting adjusted. AA WO have overall knowledge of the operation similar & almost identical to AA FM-1 as WO FM-1,. From what i know WO Pilots, especially Envoy, are told to relax and to let go of the PTSD treatment they received from regional flight operations and scheduling at Envoy. AAG is not worried about the quality of Pilots. The WO are churning out great pilots for AAG’s operation. The WO regional carriers have a great training programs, many rumors and feedbacks from those that have flowed are that WO training programs are even tougher than mainline. Overall Line flying experiences from great captains and ALPA’s safety programs have produce high quality aviators & top notch training departments & overall safety records at Envoy, PDT, PSA. AA Mainline seems to trust its WO (ENY PSA PDT) production and product representation & integration unlike UA & DL which has to test/re-interview its aspirants from EDV-Delta/CPP Regionals-United already flying it’s products and customers which to me is TURD IN THE FACE. This is unbelievable, really. AA knows exactly the bad apples they are getting through a no-interview flow, yet also knows they have to take them per the flow agreements. This is exactly why flow will probably never show up anywhere else. |
In fairness, AA gets plenty of bad apples of their own. Possibly more. Jumpseat around sometime. Some real nasty dudes in the right seat over there, toxic like you wouldn't believe. There are some unhappy SOBs here at Envoy, but their grievances are less petty in my experience at least.
I rode behind an FO who spent 2.5 hours from 10k and up talking through gritted teeth about how he thinks some regional schmo he saw walking through the terminal with a set of Beats on his head should get fired immediately. I think he thought it was me. |
Like was said before, pay rates will stay low compared to other regionals because the value of flow to new hires is still worth more than pay at other places. AAG management will only make changes when the competition makes a better offer and WO recruiting starts to suffer. I can think of 3 factors that might push this... 1. Other regionals also get a no interview flow to a major. 2. Other regionals raise pay to ridiculous rates that offset the value of flow. 3. Hiring to mainline from regionals comes at such a high rate that flow loses its value.
AAG is fighting the third factor by essentially only hiring from its WOs. It keeps movement in house high and makes career progression at other places stagnate. If hiring at Delta and United one day gets to the "fog a mirror" point, flow will become pointless because pilots will go to the best paying and quickest places to build their resumes. |
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
(Post 2690910)
I rode behind an FO who spent 2.5 hours from 10k and up talking through gritted teeth about how he thinks some regional schmo he saw walking through the terminal with a set of Beats on his head should get fired immediately. I think he thought it was me.
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Thanks a lot
Originally Posted by bigtime209
(Post 2690639)
Contract goes through October 2024. There is a limited reopener in October 2020 where the company and ALPA can each bring a couple of items to the table to attempt to negotiate. Anything negotiated during the limited reopener must be cost neutral to the company.
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Originally Posted by Tyrion
(Post 2690984)
Like was said before, pay rates will stay low compared to other regionals because the value of flow to new hires is still worth more than pay at other places. AAG management will only make changes when the competition makes a better offer and WO recruiting starts to suffer. I can think of 3 factors that might push this... 1. Other regionals also get a no interview flow to a major. 2. Other regionals raise pay to ridiculous rates that offset the value of flow. 3. Hiring to mainline from regionals comes at such a high rate that flow loses its value.
AAG is fighting the third factor by essentially only hiring from its WOs. It keeps movement in house high and makes career progression at other places stagnate. If hiring at Delta and United one day gets to the "fog a mirror" point, flow will become pointless because pilots will go to the best paying and quickest places to build their resumes. |
Originally Posted by uavking
(Post 2690988)
If he were in the service, then that reaction isn’t too surprising. Walking around looking jacked up like that would be a great way to get chewed out by an NCO, at best, or some NJP from your commander, at worst. Yeah, I get that walking around the concourse isn’t directly akin to walking around post, but come on guys, you’re in uniform in front of the public. Have some pride, look like a professional, and watch out for your buddies.
The reality is that it isn’t though. We are treated like grocery baggers. And wearing headphones complies minimally with FM1. |
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