Flow: Changes - Flow back
 

What changes to flow agreements are foreseen/guessed for the next contract for ENV, PDT & PSA pilots? Is even more opportunity for WO management to meter flow due to ‘operational necessity’ likely?? Or will things go the other way & the flow become more accommodating to the WO’s pilot groups in order to suppress direct compensation without hurting recruiting at the WO’s??

As I understand it now (and please correct me if I’m full of horned bovine excrement...), only ENV pilots (rather than all 3 WO’s) have a provision that enables movement back to ENV from mainline if the industry goes belly up. Is it likely that the PSA & PDT pilot groups gain this same ability in their next contracts? Or will this likely remain unique to ENV for some reason?

I have zero agenda in asking these questions - I’m just trying to assess the real value of the flow as I continue to evaluate which regional I hope to fly for. I appreciate your thoughts here and thanks to those good enough to respond meaningfully.

ANY promise made in this industry 6+ years out is a speculation at best. There’s this group called “protected pilots” that are flowing now, so guess what that makes all of us that aren’t in the group?

Go to a bank and cash in these big promises you’re being told, see how that goes.

Flow should be your worst-case scenario, and just one piece of your career advancement strategy.

Given the number of mandatory retirements at AA (over 75% of the current seniority list by 2032) I doubt very seriously that they would waste any negotiating capital on flow-back agreements.

None of the 3 have this.

I think Piedmont has a clause that you can return if you fail out of training.....with your previous seniority/longevity.

They do. It's basically a short leave of abscence. I wanna say 90 days? Anything happens during that period you can go back to PDT. But I believe the guy was referring to a flow back kind of setup- i.e. if AA furloughs sometime down the line, there will be a CA seat waiting for you back at the WO.

Yes, that’s what I was referring to. Eagle used to have flow back for sure and I’d been told previously (by an ENV CA) that ENV still did; are we sure none of the 3 do currently?

Big picture, things look great, but stuff will inevitably hit the fan at some point (nature of the beast) and it’s naive to pretend otherwise, right?

Anything that hasn’t been officially announced & executed is speculation - it’s the airlines & business. Since APC largely exists to share speculation (not many official announcements from airlines here...), do YOU have any speculative thoughts as to whether contractual flow agreements will likely change to further restrict pilots from moving onto mainline (at WO’s discretion) or whether the flow will be sweetened on paper in lieu of keeping up with compensation?

Pretty sure it’s already in place at ENV.

It is not.

Filler.

It’s not. It’s a long story from roughly 20 years ago when there were AA pilots that got furloughed after 9/11 that were flow backs to Eagle. That was part of the deal that allowed AMR to place jets at Eagle. That is long gone now. No flow back provisions in place today.

Often referred to as “Jets for Jobs”.

Thanks a lot for straightening me out regarding flow back (sounds like I misunderstood/miscommunicated somehow).

So what is perceived to be most likely ahead for the flow in next round of contract negotiations or other discussions of substance? (Less upward movement & harder to flow?? Or more upward movement & easier to flow in order to minimize WO’s compensation??)

I can’t speak for Piedmont or Envoy but I believe the flow at PSA is likely to increase. Mainly because our flow language lags our peer airlines and I believe that the company will use increased flow as a carrot in contractual negotiations in lieu of pay raises.

And once again you guys will vote yes.

I’m sure your group will be happy to give up SAP and any other positive QOL aspects of your contract for more flow and a fleet of 175’s.

That isn’t an untrue statement for some here. As it wouldn’t be an untrue statement for some at any airline.

For me there are some very specific things that would need to be addressed in order for me to vote Yes on a new TA. If any one of them isn’t there then I vote no regardless of flow potentially increasing.

For me increasing the flow isn't much of a carrot. Even a drastic increase wouldn’t really affect my time to AA in an incredibly appreciable amount because for every increase in the flow less pilots above me leave.

If the company wants me to give up my SAP, they’re going to have to both pay me and make my quality of life better. And I don’t think they see a reason to pay us more money right now so :o

Perhaps? This hypothetical TA is rumored to not even be released until summer 2019 at the earliest. If pilots feel like it addresses their wants and needs then they will vote Yes. If not, then no.

So if you’re implying that the pilot group at PSA will vote yes because that’s the way they voted for contract 2013 I think that’s a mischaracterization. Easily half of the current pilot group has no clue about the labor relations history here. And after 2018 ends there will be less than 100 pilots on property who even had the opportunity to vote on contract 2013. Of which many of lifers still here that I know of say they voted No on it.

You weren’t even a clever troll on APC back in 2013. And I wasn’t flying 121. This industry has changed a lot.

Yeah I agree. I’m an Envoy pilot but I think the hate towards PSA should end. Virtually none of their current group were even flying than lol let alone involved in that horrible decision. This would be like blaming my uncle for something our ancestors did 100 years ago, he had no part in it other than sharing a name.

What you guys do going forward however is yours to own.

You're right. I wasn't here back then but the story I was told by Captains here was that PSA screwed envoy by voting yes and getting all new CRJ's.

They may not have voted yes on a ballot but those hires in 2014 and 15 sure did vote Yes with their feet. Their actions said we support that horrible decision.

And I bet they went ahead of you on the flow to AA!

I’d be more concerned about them being at AA and willing to vote yes to scope relief personally.

PSA pilot’s master plans have been uncovered!

:rolleyes:

...yea, you should DEFINITELY be worried about this.

Do some of you even think about what you’re saying? It’s hilariously dumb at times.

I don’t think that is the logic people were using when they came to PSA in 2014 and 2015.

Being more concerned about mainline pilots voting in scope relief during this next contract negotiation than something PSAs pilot group did 5 years ago is dumb? Okay, sure...

Amen
Filler

Go reread the post I quoted. The poster was insinuating that PSA pilots would be in favor of scope relief.

The poster was referring to how easily members of your pilot group are swayed to benefit themselves even if it screws over other people. Those members will be flowing to AA and would vote for scope relief to benefit themselves even if it would screw over the entire industry. Your group has a history of being interested in only themselves so he or she has a point.

The yes voters are already at AA. And to my knowledge none of them are actively negotiating anything on behalf of AA pilots. And now that they’re at AA, why would they magically start voting in concessions? As I stated above, I guess I’m just not seeing the logic in your statements.

You’re making blanket statements about our pilot group based on pilots that aren’t even here anymore. And the ones that are here are the same ones who would have just as happily gone to Envoy or Piedmont if the bases worked out in their favor. This industry is so completely different than it was 5+ years ago.

Regardless I don’t care if you have disdain towards PSA or its pilots and I certainly don’t blame you or any other Envoy pilot. PSA’s vote hurt Envoy pilots. But those who voted for that contract are mostly all gone to mainline or going to retire shortly. Keep espousing vitriol towards current PSA pilots all you want. Ultimately it’s counterproductive.

I love bashing PSA as much as the next guy, but I didn’t have a clue about any of their scabby behavior until I hit the line and ran into someone who got burned by it.

Just for the sake of argument & the original question, let’s assume it’s a good thing to look forward much more than back.

What changes to the flow are most likely at the 3 WO’s during the next round of negotiations? (More/easier flow but less overall compensation than other regionals? Less/harder flow but a significant increase in overall compensation?)

Thank you and I appreciate your thoughts a great deal!

The most recent TA that PDTs pilot group shot down included zero flow changes, scheduling concessions and bottom of the industry pay in the form of Envoy rates.

Anyone at Eagle at that time got burned by it. I do personally believe that PSA would have been shut down very quickly had they turned down that 3rd attempt (they voted no 2x previously). PSA was a roughly 500 pilot airline at that time.

And call PSA pilots what you will. But the word scab is reserved for a special type of person in this industry. And to refer to PSA or any other airline pilots as scabs when they infact aren’t is to lessen the impact of the true meaning of that word.

Interesting and thanks a lot.

If WO direct compensation doesn’t increase (perhaps not the highest but at least in the ballpark with the top paying regional airlines), isn’t American (mainline) concerned that the WO’s won’t attract a high enough caliber individual today to represent AA well tomorrow as an FO & CA? In other words, at some point with EDV paying first year FO’s $50/hr & RPA paying $45/hr and now XJT & SKW paying the same or better than EDV, isn’t AAG worried that the only folks who will want to work for the WO’s (and eventually flow to AA) are those who would likely have essentially no chance of being competitive for hire at a legacy or WN if they didn’t have flow to AA?

Flow: Changes - Flow back
 

No.

No.

AAG wants the majority of their pilot pool from its WO. They check more than PRIA records & employment records before flow/Indoc just like any other mainline. AAG has advantages by having flows from its WO.

AAG is very smart in having a no interview flow. They entrust their WO regional recruiting department. They know everything about its WO pilot’s history. Data collection through saber and other programs in the training department is huge! From detailed training records and sim performances to weaknesses and strengths. From attendance record to details regarding disciplinary issues with CPO. From Sick time usage and troubles to line item data like on-time DP to fuel score card, to many other things you can imagine but are unaware that is data driven and tracked since WO NEW HIRE CLASS DATE. Im sure even your Line Check Airmen’s comments and scores in Saber are accessible/transferable to AAG. Overa AAG knows who they are getting and have a recorded history of behavior patter and how that pilot will fly at Mainline, how they will learning and how they will perform, or if they will have performance regressions, etc.

Most of this is what I have heard from multiple sources. Overall Mainline knows the bad apples when they flow before they step foot at Mainline Indoc.

The flow benefits mainline in a great way. Overall word is they are very pleased with the large majority of WO Pilots performance not only at the regional level, but when they arrive at mainline training, during IOE, and during probation, and while on the Line. More so than military and non-WO who are unfamiliar with the operations and have to take a bit long time getting adjusted. AA WO have overall knowledge of the operation similar & almost identical to AA FM-1 as WO FM-1,. From what i know WO Pilots, especially Envoy, are told to relax and to let go of the PTSD treatment they received from regional flight operations and scheduling at Envoy.

AAG is not worried about the quality of Pilots. The WO are churning out great pilots for AAG’s operation. The WO regional carriers have a great training programs, many rumors and feedbacks from those that have flowed are that WO training programs are even tougher than mainline. Overall Line flying experiences from great captains and ALPA’s safety programs have produce high quality aviators & top notch training departments & overall safety records at Envoy, PDT, PSA. AA Mainline seems to trust its WO (ENY PSA PDT) production and product representation & integration unlike UA & DL which has to test/re-interview its aspirants from EDV-Delta/CPP Regionals-United already flying it’s products and customers which to me is TURD IN THE FACE.

AAG cares about cost efficiencies in its work force. Their goal is to get the job done as cheaply as possible, with quality a secondary consideration.

As far as being worried about people leaving, part of the WO setup is the idea that folks recruited into the WO won’t want to/ be able to leave, so they get 12 years of them working at a discount rate as a WO pilot and the rest of their career at AA working at a rate that’s lower than their peers at Delta et al.

Those pilots should apply and get hired at Delta that want to work for Delta and do their best to meet Delta’s requirements. Obviously easier said than done. So people come to the WO for a ticket to the big leagues. Nobody will say it loud, but truth is, ALPA mainline is to blame for a two tier union system, thanks to scope relief decades ago. All for financial gain for mainline pilots, large majority of whom were military aviators. Facts.

That’s some strong kool aide. Take it easy on that stuff...Regionals are regionals are regionals. Doesnt matter if you’re a WO/CPP or anything. $ is always the the bottom line. “Flow” is nothing more than a recruiting tool to keep their low cost operation staffed for 10 years.