Union question
11-19-2018, 08:24 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by BigZ
Don't confuse the ALPA PAC voluntary donations and regular dues. The later cannot pay for lobbyists and such.
11-20-2018, 03:33 AM
#12
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Prior to coming to work for the airlines, I was a staunch anti union citizen. To some extent, I still am, especially labor unions that push for so much they drive the business out of the country. However, after seeing how this industry works, reading up on the past of it and looking to where it could be, I am 100% pro airline union now.
We would be up **** creek without them, especially when you look at the personality type of the average pilot and realize they can be impulsive, ungrateful and flat out wrong when it comes to managing their own destiny with an employer.
I will add that I dont think the union is always right or perfect, however they offer a nice checks and balance to pilot groups. I think the biggest issue people have with them is the time it takes to get anything done, but this is largely driven by the Railway Labor Act and market conditions.
We would be up **** creek without them, especially when you look at the personality type of the average pilot and realize they can be impulsive, ungrateful and flat out wrong when it comes to managing their own destiny with an employer.
I will add that I dont think the union is always right or perfect, however they offer a nice checks and balance to pilot groups. I think the biggest issue people have with them is the time it takes to get anything done, but this is largely driven by the Railway Labor Act and market conditions.
11-20-2018, 04:03 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 757/767 First Officer
Posts: 364
Unions are labor’s counterbalance to the power of capital markets to squeeze every last penny out of a worker.
It’s about LEVERAGE: Labor vs Capital.
Which are you? (Hint: If you don’t own the company, you are labor.)
Come revisit this thread in a few years when the industry is in a downturn and pilots with careers families are being squeezed to the breaking point because shareholders are unhappy. They will take your pay and working conditions, that you took years to work for, and flush them down the tubes.
Come revisit this thread when a medical condition grounds you from your livelihood and your airline wants to pretend that it doesn’t even know who you are.
Come revisit this thread when you’ve had an accident or incident and the airline and NTSB are oh-too-eager to blame the mishap on “pilot error, (if you’re even alive to defend yourself.)
As for the comment, “I believe in airline unions but not other unions,” that is hypocrisy at its finest. Labor workers want the power of collective bargaining so that they can have a secure career for their families. Most other forces in the world would prefer to snuff that out, and apparently you do too.
Look at the US shipping industry from 1950 to 2000 to see how good jobs are lost to foreign markets when capital is allowed to break labor’s back - flags of convenience, outsourcing, automation. ALPA is the ONLY entity preventing that exact same pattern from occurring in the airline industry right now.
It’s about LEVERAGE: Labor vs Capital.
Which are you? (Hint: If you don’t own the company, you are labor.)
Come revisit this thread in a few years when the industry is in a downturn and pilots with careers families are being squeezed to the breaking point because shareholders are unhappy. They will take your pay and working conditions, that you took years to work for, and flush them down the tubes.
Come revisit this thread when a medical condition grounds you from your livelihood and your airline wants to pretend that it doesn’t even know who you are.
Come revisit this thread when you’ve had an accident or incident and the airline and NTSB are oh-too-eager to blame the mishap on “pilot error, (if you’re even alive to defend yourself.)
As for the comment, “I believe in airline unions but not other unions,” that is hypocrisy at its finest. Labor workers want the power of collective bargaining so that they can have a secure career for their families. Most other forces in the world would prefer to snuff that out, and apparently you do too.
Look at the US shipping industry from 1950 to 2000 to see how good jobs are lost to foreign markets when capital is allowed to break labor’s back - flags of convenience, outsourcing, automation. ALPA is the ONLY entity preventing that exact same pattern from occurring in the airline industry right now.
11-20-2018, 05:02 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,659
Originally Posted by SeamusTheHound
Unions are labor’s counterbalance to the power of capital markets to squeeze every last penny out of a worker.
It’s about LEVERAGE: Labor vs Capital.
Which are you? (Hint: If you don’t own the company, you are labor.)
Come revisit this thread in a few years when the industry is in a downturn and pilots with careers families are being squeezed to the breaking point because shareholders are unhappy. They will take your pay and working conditions, that you took years to work for, and flush them down the tubes.
Come revisit this thread when a medical condition grounds you from your livelihood and your airline wants to pretend that it doesn’t even know who you are.
Come revisit this thread when you’ve had an accident or incident and the airline and NTSB are oh-too-eager to blame the mishap on “pilot error, (if you’re even alive to defend yourself.)
As for the comment, “I believe in airline unions but not other unions,” that is hypocrisy at its finest. Labor workers want the power of collective bargaining so that they can have a secure career for their families. Most other forces in the world would prefer to snuff that out, and apparently you do too.
Look at the US shipping industry from 1950 to 2000 to see how good jobs are lost to foreign markets when capital is allowed to break labor’s back - flags of convenience, outsourcing, automation. ALPA is the ONLY entity preventing that exact same pattern from occurring in the airline industry right now.
It’s about LEVERAGE: Labor vs Capital.
Which are you? (Hint: If you don’t own the company, you are labor.)
Come revisit this thread in a few years when the industry is in a downturn and pilots with careers families are being squeezed to the breaking point because shareholders are unhappy. They will take your pay and working conditions, that you took years to work for, and flush them down the tubes.
Come revisit this thread when a medical condition grounds you from your livelihood and your airline wants to pretend that it doesn’t even know who you are.
Come revisit this thread when you’ve had an accident or incident and the airline and NTSB are oh-too-eager to blame the mishap on “pilot error, (if you’re even alive to defend yourself.)
As for the comment, “I believe in airline unions but not other unions,” that is hypocrisy at its finest. Labor workers want the power of collective bargaining so that they can have a secure career for their families. Most other forces in the world would prefer to snuff that out, and apparently you do too.
Look at the US shipping industry from 1950 to 2000 to see how good jobs are lost to foreign markets when capital is allowed to break labor’s back - flags of convenience, outsourcing, automation. ALPA is the ONLY entity preventing that exact same pattern from occurring in the airline industry right now.
Unions are good, as I said, they act as a checks and balance, but just like a company can get to strong, so can a union. Either side asking for too much is a bad thing.
11-20-2018, 05:48 AM
#15
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by SeamusTheHound
It’s about LEVERAGE: Labor vs Capital.
Which are you? (Hint: If you don’t own the company, you are labor.)
Which are you? (Hint: If you don’t own the company, you are labor.)
11-20-2018, 05:50 AM
#16
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Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by Cyio
We would be up **** creek without them, especially when you look at the personality type of the average pilot and realize they can be impulsive, ungrateful and flat out wrong when it comes to managing their own destiny with an employer.
11-20-2018, 05:55 AM
#17
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Posts: 262
Originally Posted by uavking
Thanks for posting a link to a website run by a union busting front funded by corporate interests. In the words of Joe Hill, “there is power in a union.”
There is a reason that ALPA exists, and also factors that led to it not being set up along the lines of a traditional labor union. I recommend reading “Flying the Line,” for starters, when folks get time in order to get some notion of airline labor history.
There is a reason that ALPA exists, and also factors that led to it not being set up along the lines of a traditional labor union. I recommend reading “Flying the Line,” for starters, when folks get time in order to get some notion of airline labor history.
11-20-2018, 06:21 AM
#18
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Posts: 1,547
This is obviously not a serious question.
The union negotiates with the company on behalf of the pilots. For the average pilot, this is good and bad: on the one hand, solidarity among relatively hard-to-replace employees makes the company much more likely to listen. On the other, if you are not in a position to benefit from or on board with whatever the union is advocating (i.e. flow increases only for protected pilots), you are screwed.
For my part, I think that as long as things are as adversarial as they are between management & pilots, a union is a necessary inefficiency. To make a lasting change in this status quo, a company is going to have to lay down the sword, be nice to its people, and gain market-beating efficiency from it. Some people think Skywest is doing that.
Beyond that, lobbying will always be vital to prevent this career from falling apart, like so many others, to automation, outsourcing, cost cutting that affects safety etc.
The union negotiates with the company on behalf of the pilots. For the average pilot, this is good and bad: on the one hand, solidarity among relatively hard-to-replace employees makes the company much more likely to listen. On the other, if you are not in a position to benefit from or on board with whatever the union is advocating (i.e. flow increases only for protected pilots), you are screwed.
For my part, I think that as long as things are as adversarial as they are between management & pilots, a union is a necessary inefficiency. To make a lasting change in this status quo, a company is going to have to lay down the sword, be nice to its people, and gain market-beating efficiency from it. Some people think Skywest is doing that.
Beyond that, lobbying will always be vital to prevent this career from falling apart, like so many others, to automation, outsourcing, cost cutting that affects safety etc.
11-20-2018, 06:29 AM
#19
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
This is obviously not a serious question.
The union negotiates with the company on behalf of the pilots. For the average pilot, this is good and bad: on the one hand, solidarity among relatively hard-to-replace employees makes the company much more likely to listen. On the other, if you are not in a position to benefit from or on board with whatever the union is advocating (i.e. flow increases only for protected pilots), you are screwed.
For my part, I think that as long as things are as adversarial as they are between management & pilots, a union is a necessary inefficiency. To make a lasting change in this status quo, a company is going to have to lay down the sword, be nice to its people, and gain market-beating efficiency from it. Some people think Skywest is doing that.
Beyond that, lobbying will always be vital to prevent this career from falling apart, like so many others, to automation, outsourcing, cost cutting that affects safety etc.
The union negotiates with the company on behalf of the pilots. For the average pilot, this is good and bad: on the one hand, solidarity among relatively hard-to-replace employees makes the company much more likely to listen. On the other, if you are not in a position to benefit from or on board with whatever the union is advocating (i.e. flow increases only for protected pilots), you are screwed.
For my part, I think that as long as things are as adversarial as they are between management & pilots, a union is a necessary inefficiency. To make a lasting change in this status quo, a company is going to have to lay down the sword, be nice to its people, and gain market-beating efficiency from it. Some people think Skywest is doing that.
Beyond that, lobbying will always be vital to prevent this career from falling apart, like so many others, to automation, outsourcing, cost cutting that affects safety etc.
To your last point, I personally am glad the buggy whip manufacturers didn’t have a union lobbying on their behalf.
11-20-2018, 06:38 AM
#20
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Posts: 1,547
Originally Posted by Naviator
Yes, this is a serious question. Read it again. The points you make are not relevant to the question posed.
To your last point, I personally am glad the buggy whip manufacturers didn’t have a union lobbying on their behalf.
To your last point, I personally am glad the buggy whip manufacturers didn’t have a union lobbying on their behalf.
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