Flow upgrade time with military experience
 

Question for the military guys at Envoy. What has been the average timeline for getting a call from the majors? Is it 6 years like the recruiting campaign is preaching or is it shorter. Thank you. :)

You have to be much more specific. What kind of military time? Are you talking RTP or FW with lack of currency?

I’m retired AF FW guy, I don’t understand in this job market why ANYBODY with competitive TT/PIC would go to any regional, if they are willing to put in the time at Recruitment events......imho, of course.......

If you don't have an ATP, you need it from somewhere.

Ummm maybe because some military guys are tools and can’t have a normal conversation so they can’t pass an interview. Maybe they need to go get some. Social interaction time and build their personality experiences vs their flight time. Just a thought.


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It shows. Thanks for affirming the stereotype we all fight against. Call me when you don’t pass your interview, I’ll recommend you at Mesa.

Even a USAFA grad (KC-135; who'd been away from flying for awhile) needed something like two years as an Envoy FO to get picked up by AA. So...

Yes, well if you had competitive TT/PIC you wouldn’t have to, as long as that was in the last year or so. And there is some magic formula, different for each company, how much of what kind of time and how recently to still be competitive. Other wise you AREN’T competitive and you need recency. And a 121 training event will probably do it for most in that situation, even from a regional. But you still have to have the apps already in and update. Again different companies, different trigger points, as to what MIGHT trigger a call.

Same situation but the FO did 3 months on reserve and got picked up by AA. He didn’t consolidate by the time he was picked up.

pitchattitude, to be more specific: I’m an Osprey guy who will be transitioning to civilian straight out of the fleet. Now that the FAA counts my MV time as ‘fixed wing’ instead of powered lift, just seeing if that will speed up my process for getting to the majors faster. Thanks for the reply.

Still not really enough info to give you any decent advice. Are you current? Do you have 1000 hours or 2500 hours? How much PIC? How much instructor? ASO? Department head? If you want any realistic shot at going straight to the majors (some have), you need to knock out your ATP. Occasionally you'll hear of some otherwise highly qualified military pilot without their ATP getting hired by a major, but it isn't a 1200 hour osprey pilot.

As far as how long at a regional, it depends on the above. Some have spent 300 hours there and moved on, others a couple of years. Not saying you are, but definitely don't fall into the trap of looking down your nose at the regionals the way some of these arrogant jerks do.

The corporate knowledge is starting to make its way into the community. You have any buds you can hit up directly?

AA, Delta and United like your time. SW not so much.

Lots of V22 guys here at Envoy stuck in purgatory.

Some V22 pilots have gone straight to a legacy from the military also.

I know an Osprey guy. He started a year ago and is still here.

I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but I still dont understand why a 10 year military guy gets picked over 10 year regional guys. Assuming both have clean records and a degree, the regional guy should go first.

I know I know, AF pilots are so talented and it shows commitment etc. Well so does sticking it out at a regional and passing recurrent/check rides every year. Not to mention the regional pilot will be far more familiar with the operations required for 121.

This isn't the 1970's anymore when you needed the military to train you to fly and/or needed to be an engineer to run these machines. It certainly doesn't take knowledge of dropping a bomb to fly an airbus and you cant tell me that experience is more relevant than that of a regional pilot who has probably had a dozen or more 121 emergencies, countless re-routes, fuel issues etc...I also agree that a military pilot can pick up all that very easily, this is rocket science by any means.

Again, I feel I need to throw out that I fully support our military men and women, but it does seem to be a bit unfair/biased in this hiring situation.

Well, there goes this thread.

Yeah its a slow day, needed to stir the pot around here. Been getting a little chummy. ;)

Not going to stir the pot but would say that each category brings different experiences and things to the table, for better or worse. Thanks to all for answers regarding my OP.

I agree, I just dont feel that in this day and age the preference should still exist. Part of the reason I occasionally bring this up is that I feel a good deal of this hiring behavior is simply because its what has always been done. The "Old Guard" so to speak.

To your OP, sorry I didn't answer earlier. I have known three military guys during my time here, one was a V22 pilot, one a bomber pilot and the other had various roles flying for the military. V22 still here after two years, one left for FedEx, the other for another cargo carrier. The FedEx guy was out in little over a year. All had significant flying experience and college with clean records. All had recent experience as well.

I think there’s a certain amount of liking how military guys cut their hair and wear the uniform that goes on. I don’t know who the guy in full Eagle regalia lip synching with Slim Shady on his Skullcandy headphones over by G21 was, but I have a feeling he was a civilian.

If it was you stay out of my DMs, I know it’s allowed and don’t personally care lol

[MENTION=72905]Cyio[/MENTION], thanks for the info. Trust me, there is nothing I hate more than ‘that’s the way we’ve always done it’.

[MENTION=79574]NoValueAviator[/MENTION], currently rocking a low reg right now, not sure how much longer I can make the top until my SgtMaj says it’s not in USMC standards :D haha

Hey no worries and best of luck to you, I wish you the best. I dont want anyone to have to sit in the regionals longer than they need to.

[MENTION=72905]Cyio[/MENTION]. Amen! I totally agree and wonder the same thing.

@V22 guy, Hoo Rah! As a former USMC Enlisted man, I get to watch it from both perspectives. I get the veteran perk, but not the "I flew in the military" perk. Some of the best guys I ever flew with were the former enlisted guys that did thier fying outside of the military. They have the military bearing, but with a humble GA background.

At one of my previous jobs, my company recieved at tax credit for hiring recently separated veterans. Would not surprise me if there was some sort of financial benefit, whether it was direct tax credits or better statistics for winning government travel contracts etc., for airlines to hire recently separated veterans over non veterans.

If you think your dozen emergencies, countless re-routes, and fuel issues are unique to your regional experience, you have a severe lack of knowledge of what a military pilot does. Airlines don’t hire military pilots for their skills at dropping bombs or dogfighting. They do it for the exact reasons you listed as being unique to you.

Imagine completing an 8 hour mission and flying back to the boat at night . While shooting your approach, you lose electrical power and have to now fly off of your standby instruments while trying to fly your way to a good start 3/4 miles behind the ship on speed and on glide slope. You command too much power at the ramp and end up going around. Luckily, your displays come to life again after slamming into the deck just past the 4 wire. The tower rep calls and tells you that your signal is divert due to your low fuel state and lack of airborne tankers. You break out your charts and approach plates, hand fly your bingo profile towards the nearest divert in a foreign country. You work your international clearance and shoot an emergency fuel approach down to mins and land successfully. Oh, I forgot to mention you are the flight lead and your wingman has his own emergency and fuel issues that you have been monitoring and talking him through while he’s flying formation.

This scenario and ones like it occur daily in military aviation.

Hopefully this makes it a little more fair/unbiased when you think about it.

None of that has any relevance to 121.

The goal of 121 is to stay in the middle of the safety, legal, efficicency and comfort envelopes as much as possible. Most of that comes from familiarity with rules and regulations.

When was the last time you pushed off a gate? Ground stops? How many 121 reg are committed to memory? Can you apply them? Can you fly around without your paperwork getting the airline violated?

A lot of military pilots walk into the airlines expecting to own the place, yet don't even know what's going on.

Getting my popcorn ready

Daily?
I hope NO military pilots get hired in ANY 121 airline, if that's the level of their ADM.

Daily? Wow. Military flying really must suck.

So you agree military pilots should get picked over civilian pilots based on the scenario you mentioned?

Dera, I think what is trying to be conveyed is that military pilots can perform during high levels of stress and perform the duties not only in their aircraft but lead a formation as well. These types of things do happen daily for us that fly military aircraft, some this severe, some not. The fact is, operating at this level of stress when your life and the lives of the crew and passengers you are responsible for while flying over enemy territory directly relates to 121 operations. Although not as hostile, but the crew and passengers are just as important in both cases. JMHO.

Just walk thru DFW and look how the average CFI bro is dressed to know why they pick military. The lowest common denominator is of way higher quality from mil vs civilian

I wonder which one would be more embarrassing. People of Walmart, or People of DFW B gates.

People from all walks of life function under stress just fine. Police officers, 911 dispatchers, ER doctors and nurses, guys in the military who never flew an airplane. I am aware of a Navy seal at Piedmont.. Do you think a .mil pilot handles stress better than he does?

Daily?

Military pilots don't even fly daily. Most come out of the .mil after a decade with 2-3,000 hours. A comparable RJ pilot would have 10,000+ of 121... you know.. the exact job they are applying for.

Not Dera, but I think that different companies also have different preferences based on the stats of the prior hiring.
Take Southwest for example - those guys love corporate/charter pilots. Something like 50 XoJet guys were recently hired there, guys from my last gig (charter) were hired there.
Then take United - on paper they count 135 and 121 the same, in practice huge preference is given to 121 for stable approach to flying vs the 135 goal oriented cowboy attitude.
Regionals started investing into the RW military guys, but, to the best of my knowledge, the majors are holding off for now due to the guys being an unknown quality for now - not enough data for stats.

Daily as in military pilots as a whole do things like this daily. I’m certain that people perform under all kinds of stress, I wasn’t arguing that at all, just saying that military guys have proven themselves capable of it and I’m sure countless 121 guys too.

You're saying a military tanker guy flying a 737 is exposed to that every day?

Oh come on.

If you read my old post I said some guys do experience that as given in the boat landing example. Obviously not every pilot everyday, but across all the branches with the various platforms, yeah some pretty crazy scenarios happen. Not trying to keep this going, thanks to all for answers to OP.

I’m not a 737 guy so I don’t know what they are exposed to daily haha

Dera,

No tanker guy flys 737s. Our formation flights are usually more relaxed than our pointy nosed friends, but hardly as easy as 121 world. As a 121 guy I’ve never been asked (and given) to give away so much gas that I’m below bingo for the only airfield I can land at. I’ve never been so low on gas over a hostile country that I can’t make it home without a successful air refueling. I’ve never lost an engine over the arctic while flying a jet home with a cracked main landing gear on a one time flight waiver. Finally no RJ driver has ever been told to loiter for hours within the engagement envelope of a hostile nation’s (we were bombing they) SAM batteries because their gas is needed and the CFAC is willing to gamble their lives that the hostile nation won’t take the shot.
RJ guys do benefit from experience in the 121 world. My new hire classmates from that world did great and have nothing to apologize for, but the FAA would never let a 121 pilot be deliberately put in scenarios that are routine in military operations. A pilot from an exclusive 121 background may or may not be able to handle the things military pilots have been through, but they haven’t proved it.

Yeah the tanker comment was left there by mistake, I edited that post a few times before I hit submit.

I don't see how those experiences help you in 121 world. Actually it's the opposite. I don't think accepting sub-bingo fuel shows good decision making. That's what really matters in the 121 world, not how much pressure you can fly under.

One of the big reasons why airlines prefer military pilots is, that the hiring pilots are mostly military, and they appreciate those treats even though they don't really help you much in your day to day operation.
And yes, partly because some of the CFI "bros" are pretty awful pilots and people.

Here's a different perspective for the 121 guys out there who don't understand why mil guys should receive preferential treatment:
-Mil guys, and gals spend years in multiple levels of training, so I'd say we've been vetted on numerous occasions, from Officer Candidate School on up to Division leader check rides. There are ample steps in that process for people to fail, show their lack of integrity and poor judgement, the military thus is a great vetting platform- it creates a known entity that the majors don't have to guess on.
- The stress has been mentioned before- but there are so many other aspects of a mission besides flying that hones people into a more well rounded aviator. Yes, being able to compartmentalize a stressful situation as mil aviators have to do, WILL make you a better 121 pilot. Have civilian only pilots been in stressful situations- of course they have, probably different circumstances than mil guys, but their experiences hone who they are as well.
-Safety- we were forced into a culture of constant learning when it came to aviation and ground safety. We became students to it and have read and or discussed many aviation related mishaps. Not once in Envoy's mediocre training have we discussed anything meaningful in regards to aviation safety- in the mil, the constant learning and "being a student of the game" was part of everyday life.
-I had a Capt once mention how much he "put in his dues etc" during the bankruptcy drama and how many times he had slept on the ORD crewroom floor- LOL- I Kindly reminded him that we all put in our dues at some point before coming to Envoy, but I wasn't sympathetic to his crew room stories....
As 121 pilots, we all came from somewhere, us former mil folks were paying dues even though we weren't in the regionals, shocking I know. Military backgrounds don't make us any better pilots than the guys who were CFI's either- it's just a matter of what pathway you wanna take to the majors....

...and still, the only checkride failures we had in our class were military guys.
Yet these guys will be at majors before anyone else with clean records. No. It has nothing to do with what you said. It's just a blind preference.
Funny how the only guys who crumbled under pressure were the military guys. Good people, but not great pilots. And not working well under stress.
Perhaps it was because actually a huge part of military aviators have never experienced the stuff you described. The stories we hear from them are nothing like what you are telling.