ALPA is not what it used to be
 

Back in the day when an airline fired a pilot for no good reason ALPA stood up for that pilot and the pilot group stood behind ALPA demanding reinstatement. The power of the union was used to protect pilots. Today ALPA sends a disappointed email to the pilot group, then silence. Where’s Dave Behncke when we need him?

I only know the generalities of the situation, but having seen the fallout from some of these type of things at a regional I’d imagine if the CA was in fact wrongfully terminated it will take time making its way through the courts and then they’ll eventually get their job back with backpay plus maybe some extra etc etc... It’s just a process.

The reality is that an employer can let anyone go at any time for any reason they choose. Whether it was wrongful or not is then determined by the courts if that is the avenue the wronged party wishes to pursue. It stinks, but it’s the truth.

That is the case for employees at will and not under a labor contract. Unionized employees under a contract are not considered "at-will." The employer has to follow the termination process laid out in the CBA or they open themselves up to a lawsuit.

Correct. But none of that changes anything I just said.

I am very sure the Captain will indeed get his job back, the FO most likely not. This is a process that will take some time, but it will happen.

The optics of the situation forced the hand of the company and they know that it won't stand up through arbitration, however to appease the public they did what they did.

It sucks, it was wrong, but I have faith it will get rectified at some point, hopefully with a little bonus to go on top of it. In terms of ALPA, what would you have them do to rectify the situation other than go through the legal arbitration process? We can't strike, we cant refuse to fly, we cant break the status quo etc. The courts have time and time again sided with management when it comes to these options due to the RLA. It sucks, however I know that the union is doing everything they legally can to move this issue forward, it will just take some time.

Appease who? I doubt anyone in the general public has any idea that the pilots were fired.

Not entirely correct it was to appease AAG.

Still puts every pilot on notice. You better be perfect or else.

As pointed out arbitration is the only way which sucks for the FO as he was a probationary release which can’t be grieved.

Does anyone else feel a little afraid ever since this incident? It’s like the OP said, “you better be perfect or else.”

It’s just sad. Pilots make mistakes. We should all learn and move on. Now it’s a little nerve racking that you’re one mistake away from being fired and your career being ruined. Even when the CA gets his job back, it’s a big question mark on his career. I hope this pilot group can set their ego aside and really listen and slow down. If you aren’t a little concern or extra careful now, you need to be.

I am not willing to go into further detail about it but I will say the company had very strong reasons to distance themselves, regardless of our opinion on it.

Yes, its horrible, however this was a very unique experience and the termination was damage control.

I don’t see what’s unique about this. I’ve personally seen mistaken headings rolled in more than once, and while I’m hyper-vigilant in the terminal environment, especially with IFR turns starting 400’, this 100% could happen to me or you.

Oh, do tell. You can't just drop that tidbit and walk away.

Yep........

Ohhhh someone here is soooo important.. they have insider information!! They know people! But nope, no proof you know anything lol. Just trying to post and get yourself some attention like you might actually be someone important.

Well given you have two posts, you either are brand new here or didn't want to post on your main account. Either way, I am not here for attention and I think any reasonable person could look back and see that.

All I am saying is there was another outside factor that could have influenced the swift and harsh action. I am not saying it is right, just saying it may have been a factor.
I am not withholding that information for any reason other than the union and pilots are working to get their jobs back and I don't think the details should be shared while its an open issue.

If you are new here, welcome, hopefully you have more constructive posts going forward.

Are you referring to something other than the media coverage?

In the interest of helping others to not face the same outcome, can anything be shared (generally speaking) to be vigilant to avoid other than the mistake itself? Are these "outside factors" in the cockpit, outside the cockpit, happen the same day, days prior, as a crew or individuals? Just anything to be helpful so others are not building a nest of these outside factors in case a mistake happens and the cannon is now pointed at us. Ounce of prevention type question, but obviously don't want to harm their cause or defense.

Outside of the cockpit and nothing the crew could have done.

Then why were they fired? Like many things at Envoy, Makes no sense.

Outsider here, what happened? Cant imagine too many scenarios where the CA would get the job back but the FO would not.

FO was on probation, so not much the union can do for him.

once CA gets job back, FO should sue.

100% agreed.

Oh, now I'm intrigued!

They were both in A Cut Above shirts.

Lmao!

Filler....

And American Flag ties.

Are these noticeably different, and if so, will you get hassled wearing them? If hassled, what happens?

I would be amazed if anyone notices. If they do you probably did something wrong lol.

lol my post was more intended to poke fun at the guys pretending to know about some secret rogue variable that makes the firings justified

but yes, they are noticeably different. The design of the breast pockets is a dead giveaway to the informed. You are unlikely to get hassled. If you get hassled you'll probably just be told to put on the correct uniform unless the person hassling you really doesn't like you, then maybe step letter I guess?

These are a cut above shirts if im not mistaken

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2c5IlAUA0/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1dv5w1nmbzwua

indeed they are. so perhaps cut above shirts are approved by recruitment.

My point ;)

Can’t say they are Cut Above, but definitely not standard uniform.

So does the “I’m a cool with the Aviators hanging out of the pocket” look in violation of FM1 imply being endorsed by Recruitment as well?

Does Envoy have an ASAP program?

Yes.

10/char

Would that not cover a non intentional pilot deviation (if that’s what we’re talking about here)?

Yes, it operates at management and the media’s discretion.

Truth....filler

Sure would. Unfortunately for this crew, they got themselves on the news before they even landed. And I believe ASAP can only protect you against certificate action by the FAA, it does nothing to protect you from your employer. And a predatory management will look for any excuse to terminate in the event of bad press. I hope the FO gets some justice for this. What happened to him wasn’t right.

Seems like a great way to promote a good safety culture.