Y'all really need to watch The Gumball Rally. Bring you back to true prespective on life.

Somebody’s watching TCM 😁

I had to check, you're correct, TCM.

There was nothing else on the hotel tv.
Sorry for the drift.
Continue, #FUPM

[MENTION=88172]UnprotectdPilot[/MENTION]. We know you meant well by starting this thread. Your disclaimer regarding not including pay banding, etc shows that you’re not well versed on how the current Envoy pay model works. Likely confused as the company is also.

As has been suggested, you’re better off just showing the E145 CA rates for CA pay comparison purposes.


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There aren’t going to be any pay rates coming. PSA just agreed to a new deal with the flight attendants as well and apparently they have gotten some good gains. Including min day guarantee, six paid holidays, and other items. AAG is just screwing with PDT and ENY now. It’s time to embrace the horror and start making song requests to the string quartet on the deck of the Titanic. PSA is the golden child, and the rest are just skid marks and grundle juice.

I loved this one;
An entitled new hire cadet(already ****ed off about his 145 seat) during indoc why PSA got the pay and Envoy didn't. An union guy said "it's because of you. If you weren't here, we would get them too".

Boom.

Jet blue E190 first year CA pay 189 a hour. Pretty crazy how low we are willing to accept minimum wage to
Do the same job. Please wake me up from this nightmare.
All new hire FO’s you make 37.90 an hour to fly a 170/190. They are making 90 hr at JB. If you are going to commute, do it for
Real money.

Maybe they’re on-time more than we are 😆

TOTD award... would go to the cadet.

The company cares about many different metrics, not just filling classes with new pilots. Many of the things the company cares about could be impacted by the current pilot group on property with union leadership. Waiting for classes to not fill up is the easy answer because it requires the union and current pilots to do nothing. They can just point their fingers at new pilots happy to be at an airline instead of doing their job. Pay rates at envoy have been behind for several years now so instead of blaming the newest pilots in the company how about owning the fact that over the past two years many other regionals have gotten pay increases but we haven’t.
New pilots aren’t entitled, we just can’t figure out why this pilot group has been happy working for peanuts for so long.

But how did a cadet end up with a 145? I thought the last 145 only class was before the PSA raise.

I mean, I agree that the post you quoted probably didn't actually happen but cadets have gotten the 145. Actually, as the proportion of cadets in classes increases, RTP hires dwindle, and street hires remain near zero, we'll see more and more cadets getting flushed down the 145 drain. Being a cadet only helps if you have non-cadets in class or your cadet seniority is better than the others.

It's a shame no one saw this coming early enough to kill the cadet program. Being able to count on access to unlimited enthusiastic applicants who would happily fly half our fleet for free and who will never ask for anything puts us in a terrible position for trying to achieve anything resembling parity with our peers.

At other places management might not ruthlessly take advantage of this situation, but here... well, every month a greater and greater proportion of our flying is done by reserves (who have essentially no protection in our crappy CBA), every month the schedules get worse and worse, and the hotels get crummier and crummier. No end in sight.

Falalalalala lalalala la

Dang, I thought we were disgruntled over at Piedmont. But y’all have cause.
Best of luck at the table.

The FO I flew with Last night was a 2017 hire that was in the cadet program.

He was told by the recruiters that all the cadets would get the 175 no problem. Not one single person in class he said got the 175 and all got the 145.

He’s currently on forever reserve in DFW after displacing from ORD and guess when his flow is?

Sometime late 2026 with hopes for January 2026 due to flows and attrition.

A shame what’s going on here.

7-8 years to flow isn’t bad historically. Those flowing in 5-6 years (which is not the, “norm”) from the WOs simply timed things well. Nothing more, nothing less. It takes the average pilot 5-6 years to become competitive to be hired at a legacy anyway. Anyone coming from a 1,000-1,500 hour background to the regionals right now should expect it to take 5-8 years to move on IF there are no industry hiccups etc. Mid 2020 will be their time to get on at a legacy and they’ll be in the middle / on the backside of the retirement wave. Timing is everything.

Wow the first logical post I’ve seen here in a while


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Except you're paying 20k a year for the privilege of possibly flowing if mgt feels like it 2+ years after your peers were already hired ots, if you wait. If not then you just pay 20k a year for nothing.

7-8 years to flow may not be bad historically, but let’s not forget and take into consideration that recruitment is blatantly lying to cadets and recruits that they will get 175’s and flow in 5.5 years.

The true time table is exactly that 7.5-8.5 year flow which is far more than 5.5.

My problem here is with recruiting selling and telling blatant lies to prospects and we wonder why we can’t get better compensation.

Every fairly new guy I fly with felt as though as they’ve been lied to and/or swindled and that’s what my main concern is and what needs to be brought to light.

I can’t even be bad at the ones coming in, granted they could do more research of course, but they’re being led as they were blind sheep.

Guess they were to busy facebooking to check out the forums. Buyer be ware.

I have an issue with ‘xyz is not historically bad so what we have is OK”. We’re entering an historical anomaly regarding the number of retirements. Why are we supposed to just ignore that?

AND, the post that I’m referencing thinks flow is 7-8... until guys here are working actively to get out without regards to flow (remains to be seen) flow will be 8+.

It’s 8+ already!

Where’s the data that supports the flow is 8.5 years?


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Alpa website

Yeah, ALPA website projection is more like 9 years.

There are a lot of pie in the sky guys (dera) that think “oh, it will be much less than 9 years because everyone will be hiring like crazy”. However, almost all of ENVOY’s non-flow attrition are guys that are VERY junior so that attrition only effects you while you are junior to THEM.

Without major changes, you will not flow in less than 8 years. I’m not even getting into the loose language regarding non-protected flow.

But HEY, come here! I really want someone junior to me to sit reserve so I don’t have to. ;)

Yeah this is the thing people just fail to understand. The movement from attrition is disproportionally junior, mainly due to military folks coming in needing to show Papa Major they can get through a 121 type ride. After that, they are gone in a few months. I know of three in my new hire class that did just this, gone in well less than a year. There where two other military guys that I didn't keep in touch with that are mostly likely gone as well.

This is great for a new hire for about a year, when suddenly you are senior to these people again. While we do lose some senior people, the fact of the matter is that the more senior you get, the less likely you will be affected by attrition because the more of your peers are holding out for the flow.

Folks. It isn’t that hard.

ALPA projects worst case scenario for flow. Company projects best case scenario for flow. Take the average. That’s probably what you are looking at.

The ALPA projection is just as inaccurate as the company’s projection.

This mindset can be extrapolated to everyone the company and ALPA tells you. ALPAs purpose is to make you think company is out to get you and that you really need ALPA to protect you by paying our ridiculous annual dues.

What ever the company tells you and what ALPA tells you are the polar extremes. The truth always is somewhere in the middle.

Congrats guys we are the lowest paid WO now.

Falalalala lalala la.

Yeah WTF Envoy MEC ... but good news everybody now they feel the need for an explanation of why they stink so much ...

This is getting embarrassing.

I don't really lay this at the feet of our MEC. Last time I personally talked to someone on the negotiating committee (pretty recent), the company hadn't really been open to anything ANYONE here would accept.

It's like management needs to see this place burn a little before they see the light.

Then why suddenly so defensive ... I don't buy it ... maybe we need people to negotiate that are not afraid to raise a stink aka worry about their flow.

It is not that simple. I have met guys from the negotiations MEC. They honestly work hard for us. Negotiations take time and we all need to be united. Turning our backs on our union would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.

We will win this fight, there is NO WAY in this kind of pilot hiring climate that Envoy will keep up running its operation smoothly. I will standby and await for my unions instructions. In the mean time, i show up, fly my contract and go home as soon as the last passenger deboards.

Dont get me wrong, I too feel frustrated. I really hope prospective envoy pilots read this forums and understand this is not the time to come here. Wait til we are paid what we deserve. You will be thanking yourselves in the future.

UNITY!

I agree with you that it's somewhere in the middle. I think most people think it's somewhere in the middle. But there's a lot of space in that middle.

The way I see it, while ALPA's projection of a 9 year flow is a little on the pessimistic side, it's possible. I can't even fathom how the company comes up their projection of 6 years... seems almost impossible. And given that almost all non-flow attrition is extremely junior, I think new hires TODAY are looking at an 8 year flow at best.

And all that assumes that AA continues to hire like bananas for the next decade. Flow is connected to hiring numbers so if AA stops hiring, so does flow.

Remember, the likelihood of pop up thunderstorms exponentially increases in the summers. AOM 1 requires that when taxiways are slippery or wet that we taxi on two engines. May cost the company more than $15/hour for fuel, but one can’t put a price on safety.

Frustrating


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Amen. Everything i do in our flight deck is within the companies rules and in the interest of safety. I hope i dont have to start flying EXTRA safe.

Who's being 'so defensive'? Did I miss something? I read the email from today and it is pretty consistent with what I heard directly from a negotiating committee member. Company is not being realistic. They are not even in the right ballpark.