Toms Email
 

Looks like the company is still the same company it was 10 years ago. Many of us have said it, but it serves repeating, this managment will never do anything to favor their pilot group and will actively search for ways to hurt it.

It takes a special kind of sickness to use an unprecedented event like this to try and squeeze even more out of those suffering through it already. The fact that the company sought 500% savings in order to get the furloughs to end is horrific and was done simply as a power/money grab at the expense of 260 pilots careers.

Rant over I suppose but if you ever feel like “helping out” or “do them a favor” remember this email that was sent out and out that thought to bed.

Yeah I tried explaining this to an FO yesterday who was upset with the union for not doing more. The company doesn't want to talk, they want what they want.

I just checked my contacts and I'm all updated. I didn't receive Tom's email. Was it sent to all members or just to a limited group?

Pretty sure it went out to all active union members.

Business as usual for Fibergas and Tricky Dic

That would be me. Weird.

It sucks that the union guys actually honor the NDAs they have signed, when certain management people go around shouting half truths in crew rooms. I am glad Tom sent that email. My sources tell me the union guys have spent hours, days and weeks in the past 7 months trying to work something out to keep the 227 on board. Too bad the other party did not feel that was important to them.

Today actually hurt.

Yes this is bad, but what's worse is that envoy is still giving flight and medical benefits to cadets plus a monthly payment, while they furlough active employees. That's what you have to remember, you have no value, you are a liability not an asset. Actions speak louder than words, remember next time mgt tells you they care about you.

I have always said that a company that takes care of and respects their workers won’t have a problem getting and keep them.

Envoy brings out the best in people like THKoolAid who is constantly fluffing the cadets. Take care of your current people and the rest will take care of itself.

The Sewell family of auto dealers in the DFW area are known for their management style and even wrote a book about it. Envoy could take some pages from their work.

All the cadets that were furloughed need to reach back to their friends and let them know what kind of company they are jumping into bed with. It may look like a SNJ on the outside, but it still full of $h!t on the inside.

And for those that don’t know the SPECIFIC meaning of “fluffing”, I am VERY specifically using it for THKoolAid.

The company’s outlook is probably political, at least in part. How is Parker supposed to beg for handouts from the government to avoid furloughs if we avoid furloughs without it?

Pouring one out for our guys tonight.

Where is THKooj? Our cheerleader is MIA

Recruiting/fluffing...


:eek:



:D

Deleted. . . . .

He was on another post earlier today.

That’s all we’ll and good, but it doesn’t give our 227 brothers and sisters a paycheck or healthcare tonight. I knew the company was shrugging off a lot of attempts to mitigate, but seeing the entire list in detail made me sick to my stomach.

Keep your chins up boys and girls. We’ll see you out on the line soon enough.

He’s in the RAH thread talking down to them and propping up Envoy’s MIA strategy. Take him back? Lol

Can the country just start recovering so the LCC’s can start hiring again? We’ll have captains leaving quicker than management can ignore a union email

I just passed 1000tpic about a month ago. I hope Frontier/Spirit starts hiring soon.

Big Tom’s email was on point. This MEC is by far one of the best this pilot group has ever had. Sadly, it doesn’t surprise me how this company is stalling negotiations. Envoy needs new management people, RW and RN have been around for too long. I’m wondering if management is gonna send a response to the union’s email- are they man enough to do that!?

Best case scenario they hire middle of summer 2021. NK has people on extended leave through June 2021 and doubt they’d hire when they’re still paying people to sit at home.

I agree, this MEC seems to get it and have learned from the mistakes of the past ones. In terms of management at Envoy, I dont see them doing anything different than they have always done, which means they will be keeping those two fools in the same position, if not promoting. Even if management sent an email, is there anything in it we could believe? I understand the company has to look out for all groups when making these decisions and we cant assume we are the only people who are having an issue, but when the union offers very good ideas and they are dismissed flat out or returned with some outrageous counteroffer, it is clear they are not dealing in good faith.
I would agree this is the best case scenario however I think it will still be longer. Not a single person has gotten the timeline of this thing correct as of now, so I am not holding my breath.

I agree, they've been doing an excellent job.

Personally, and I know this may be unpopular with some; but never ever give back concessions.

Let them furlough if they have to. It's not straight salary savings, because the bring-back costs are there too making furlough the more expensive option if it's going to be less than six months. The reason being the company will forever afterwards use it as the new baseline to say things like if it was okay then, then it's okay now.

Additionally, with the specter of BK looming is in discussions everywhere, and AAG has rehired the same legal firm that did their last bankruptcy. Last time they did BK they were trying to wring concessions out of us right up until the day before they declared. If we had taken concessions then, they'd have taken even more again during the bankruptcy.

In 2010 they were "divesting" us 'again' and said they needed concessions for us to be a viable stand alone company. It seemed like every four years at opener time we were "For Sale" or being divested, or being shut down.

The one thing that never changed was it was impossible to get actual gains. Their answer was always no, don't like it here, leave. The shortage changed all that. Real gains were made slowly over time until a new first year FO was making almost what junior Captains used to make. It was $21k a year when I started with no bonus, no flow, and no upgrade for about 10 years. By 2015 the industry abuse of pilots had become so bad that not enough people were entering the profession anymore. The industry's greed had choked off their supply of future pilots.

For the love of God, do not give them concessions when by every measure known they are already planning a run through bankruptcy. You'll end up giving twice. An arbitrator will be told by their lawyers that if the concessions were okay to save potential furloughs, then they are okay to save the company... and the snap back provisions will get cancelled and the deal will become permanent.

This management team is unethical and can not be trusted, and by the sounds of it, Tom's letter says that nothing has changed. Don't play their game.

some perspective
https://crankyflier.com/2014/01/23/a...agle-er-envoy/

For those who still dont understand may I reference you to our A.I.P. that was negotiated, approved by both sides and then mgt reneged.

Or our bankruptcy contract that was negotiated, SIGNED, and then reneged on (we were told we hadn’t given up enough and they wanted more).

This mgt really sounds like a divorced wife.

Nothing learned
 

You guys didn't learn a dam thing from our sacrifices. Now this is your "black Swan"event like 9-11 was ours.

Here comes the company stooges with the old AMR anti labor playbook.

Same old plays, new set of players---when will it ever end.

How have we not learned? Isn't not giving them a single concession they are asking for learning from the past? Everyone I've seen and talked to here, minus those getting furloughed who don't know the full eagle history, are holding the line.

It really seems like the overwhelming majority supported not giving anything back to the company, especially with the AAG financial situation. A couple of the furloughed pilots have been pretty vocal about their new found hate for ALPA and their fellow pilots because concessions weren’t taken to keep them on property. I guess they don’t realize that they work for a carrier where they are flying under a bankruptcy era contract courtesy of two rounds of concessions. Why you would give anything back to the same management who gutted you last time is beyond me.

It also sounds like mgmt was not negotiating in good faith.

They got bonus and retention money plus a 40 percent pay raise, I got shi+. Other than that, it's the business, love it, hate it, grow with it, we do not support socialism here.
just an opinion.

100% agreed. And now with October we have the amendment round. This should be a fun time for all.

Maybe the union should send a comm (dera?) about the history of concessions at Eagle, and the industry as a whole. Our benefits, including 401k, healthcare contribution, vacation, PTO, etc are all LESS than they were in the 90s and 00s, and not just for us, almost every airline, not to mention all the pensions that have been lost to management bonuses. It already takes almost 3 years just to get more than a week of vacation. Giving up anything at this point when were already paid the lowest of the low in the industry is just nonsense, especially with a company that is trying to force our hand and playing with peoples' lives by ignoring proposals and waiting until the last week to come to the table, only to offer major permanent concessions. No thanks, sorry to anyone reading this who has been furloughed but the industry will return, and you'll be in a better position from this.

“But, but, Ric called me and it was really classy! All you guys wanted was your OT!”

the history lesson is a good idea. Seriously fully support that endeavor.

Not sure if some would even listen to that since it’s almost unbelievable as complete truth. Too easy to say that was a long time ago and cannot happen again. It can and does. Look at XJT and CommutAir. I’ve flown with enough old grizzled Captains at several companies to be very paranoid. The 4 day trip with a grizzled lifer should be a 90 day currency like landings. The group as a whole would have a different perspective and half this stupid stuff wouldn’t even be considered.

Of course some of the guys getting furloughed would be willing to sacrifice anything in our contract to avoid losing their livelihood for the forseeable future. Completely understandable. I don't do much OT myself.


However, I might be giving management too much credit, but to me it seems like their automatic no to mitigation, crew room roadshows, and unwillingness to even consider addressing glaring sources of waste and abuse (cadet program) for savings before coming after pilot jobs makes this look political. It undermines solidarity and weakens us to further concessions, esp. when the AAG bankruptcy inevitably hits within the next 5 years. It also satisfies their desire to post job losses to motivate congress to make with the handouts.


Just remember guys, we're already extremely cheap as far as airline pilots go. If they want the OT letter or whatever else, they can afford to buy it back from us.

One of the vocal complainers doesn't realize he was in the group who was going to get furloughed no matter what. The company demanded things only to save the 72 line qualified senior pilots. The bottom 155 were toast even if the union gave everything the company wanted.
And even those 72 would only have been safe for 6 months, after that they would have been toast too, but the concessions were permanent - no expiration date offered.
Great deal.,

It's also hard to take some vocal critics seriously when they end their soapbox about how they can't pay bills with them taking a vacation to another country during a health pandemic.

May not have been a smart financial move all things considered. But hey, he deserved it. Treat yo self.

Also ending his post with "admittedly I don't know anything about the history of our contract or concessions"

So pretty much political theater? ”I don’t know why I'm yelling but it's all your fault.”