When should I apply? Got Denied
 

I applied for the FO position yesterday and got denied for not meeting the minimum requirements. My understanding was: apply 2-3 months before reaching minimums. When did you guys apply and how long did it take to hear back?

Also, should I leave my application in AirlineApps and keep updating it? Or take it down, and repost it when I have my actual R-ATP minimums?

For context, I applied with 830TT with 53 FTD time that can be added to the TT as part of my 141 training and I was told I can be hired at 950TT for ATP-CTP. That means I have only 67 hours to go! I get 60 hours a month as a CFI.
I am also 60 hours short of my XC time requirement (110XC+30 ATP-XC).

Got any tips?

Contact their recruiting department directly. They’ll have the exact answer.

Make sure they’re hiring FO’s.

regionals are captain constrained and mostly don’t need new FO’s. website verbiage/conventional wisdom from a year ago may no longer apply.

Get more cross country time - at least until you DO meet requirements?

But the above posting is correct. Most regionals are CA constrained and with major hiring as it is, that may not get any better any time soon. Once you actually DO meet requirements you might want to expand your search to ACMI or LCC/ULCC, even Part 91 turbine jobs.
companies that are losing FOs to the legacies. It used to be that 1000 hours of TPIC was the entry level ticket to even be looked at by a major, but that’s no longer the case. ME turbine time as SIC will do it too, and the ULCCs need FOs right now. The regionals not so much. Having more FOs than CAs just means that you have more FOs flying less, decreasing their own hours and increasing the time their fellow FOs take to qualify for upgrade which is not only an unneeded overhead expense for the regional but actually increases the loss of the higher time FOs to other opportunities (like ACMI and ULCC) where they can get the hours to become competitive faster.

Pinging off the above:

Get a non-121 job that will get you turbine hours, get your unrestricted ATP and skip the regionals.

The thing is, I paid 300,000$ for that 500 hour discount (and 4 year bachelors). My student loan repayments are $1,800 for the next 15 years. I need a job that actually pays money! (like a regional paying 10k/month).

This is good advice, but easier said than done. Do you have any suggestions on how to find a non-121 job for a CFI with around 1000 hours? Also, wouldn't it take longer to get to the legacy if I don't go through the regionals?

My understanding is ULCCs don't even look are you unless you're an unrestricted ATP, is that the case? Did I get my R-ATP for nothing?

Also, what is an ACMI?

No, apparently it cost you $300k, which seems kind of exorbitant. Especially if you went through four years of aviation training and no one ever even told you what ACMI is.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/f...rements-2.html

QUOTE]​​​

https://www.abxair.com/services/acmi-services

https://www.atlasair.com/cargo-services/acmi/

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/abx_air




Look, you need to deal with reality here. You need to get hired WHERE YOU CAN GET HIRED PROMPTLY AND GET ME TURBINE HOURS. But before that, you are going to need to get your RATP requirements completed. Then apply anywhere that you can get those multi engine turbine hours. Part 91, Fractionals, it doesn’t matter.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/...tional/netjets

IF you can get a CJO from a regional and IF that regional will give you a class date and IF they don’t slip it on you, all well and good. But right now there is a shortage of regional CAs and you can’t fly as an FO without one of them sitting beside you so right now entry level FOs are being slow rolled. That’s just the facts, and your debt load doesn’t change those facts.

Sorry to tell you but the college sales people who sold you the RATP were lying to you.

You are the lowest candidate, below all the non-RATP candidates. Hope the tide turns soon.
Find a job that gets you to unrestricted ATP mins, and you can start paying the 300k you paid for no reason.

In all fairness, when aviation colleges were selling restricted ATP programs four plus years ago, all the regionals were hiring them. That being said, $300K was WAY too expensive for what could have been a much cheaper both degree and full set of ratings.

Also, it was certainly an incomplete education if it didn’t include learning about those employment options that are outside of major airlines.

Excargodog has the key piece of advice: work with reality and go where the jobs are

Regionals are no longer really interested in FO’s

So figure out another path.

For part 91 jobs, press the flesh. Talk to the counter girls and line guys. The airlines are sucking a lot of experienced corporate guys out leaving jobs available.

And get yourself on an income driven repayment plan.

Yeah, for a first year pay of $40-50 an hour with a 70 hour guarantee. That wasn’t a helluva return on a $300k investment even back then.

Definitely in agreement there…

There has definitely been a sweet spot. Timing is everything, unfortunately you just don’t know when the RIGHT time is until it’s after the fact. Even if you do, there is usually not enough you can do to control your own timing.

If you really want a regional job I would apply to all of them, not just Envoy. It’s a fairly competitive market now that the pay is so high. A lot of guys with 121 and/or turbine time are applying to the regionals now. You need an unrestricted ATP to get your app through the door at ACMI or LCCs so I’d recommend getting into the right seat of anything with 2 engines as quick as you can.

R-ATP is only good for getting you into a regional prior to 1500 TT. Otherwise it’s pretty useless. Unfortunately it sounds like you went to Riddle and paid over 2x what you could have paid at just about any other University flight school.

This is not true at all. I am a 1000hr R-ATP candidate in class at a regional right now. There are several others in my class as well.

Yep, I don't regret it (yet), but young 18 year old me was impulsive and wanted to "go to the best aviation university in the world".

Turns out it didn't matter lol

-$300,000

Don't beat yourself up. They market like they do because laypeople believe it. Get yourself on an income driven repayment plan and move on.

yea.. I'm starting to find that out..

I refinanced my loans last year, I don't know if I can do income driven repayment since I've agreed to the $1,800/m for 15 years.

At Sun N Fun this week Envoy recruiters were telling people to apply within 200 hours of ATP mins.

And Endeavor said they weren't booking FO new hire classes until at least the end of the year.

Keep updating your airline apps app, I think FO’s are seeing class dates again. And explore the other options listed above.

Is this real or are you trolling? if its real you dun f'kd up.

I'm starting to think the 115K paid for my 182 over 8 years ago was a better way to build time and ratings.

One option would be to go work for 10 years as a pilot for the border patrol, national park service, forest service, etc. under the federal government to qualify for public service student loan forgiveness. If you could get the term over 30 years, the monthly amount would drop and more would be forgiven after 10 years. For the border patrol, you could retire after 25 years and age 50 for example. I'm not sure of the exact rules but was talking to a pilot in a FBO and he was happy with his choice. He was going to retire and be a contract pilot until his social security kicked in.
Public Service Loan Forgiveness | The White House

Start casting a wider net such as ameriflight, local FBOs, etc..

Sweet Baby Jezus, that’s a mortgage right there.

I knew FO’s at Eagle back in the day that used their reserve time to wait tables at Fridays in DFW’s A terminal. I used to substitute teach, mow lawns, and manage rental properties to make extra money. $15K a year as an FO was not fun.

This is the world where the curtain-climbers expect everything now. Short-cut the line, race right to the shiny jet.

No clue.

Get qualified. Then apply. It won't hurt to get some experience, first.

You don't buy experience. You earn it. Go do that.

He/she can’t do this—they refinanced with a private company. Can’t do income-based, can’t do PSLF. I don’t get why anyone refinances fed loans to private. You never know what the future holds and having the option to income-base or even defer if in a crisis is invaluable. Yet people refinance despite these warnings that the private companies are required to give. Don’t do it!

Because US public schools don’t teach squat about financial education. I don’t know how many times in my military years one of the Senior Enlisted Advisors would shake his head in despair saying, ‘I used to think that old ‘I can’t be out of money, I still have checks left,’ line was a joke. I hear it damn near every week.

I can't be out of money. I still have credit cards yet. Can't they just increase the limit?

Avelo hires with RATP try them. I might not know much about the industry since I started flight training early this year, but they are not wrong, try Atlas or other ULCC most of thempay the same as a regional or might even be more(you can correct me if I'm wrong) you will fill the "shinny jet syndrome" and have a decent QOL. https://www.airlineapps.com/jobs/det...=First-Officer

Two words: Dave Ramsey.

He'll give you two more: Rice & Beans.

Seriously though: the best thing you can do right now for your future self is get some unbiased instruction in personal finance. (e.g. please tell me you don't also have a $500+/mo car payment?)

Your stats are not competitive, that is why you got denied. A majority of regionals are not hiring at minimums anymore.

what are the competitive hours are right now? should I finish my flight training if I'm not going to be hired at regional?

it's not that they're hiring FO's with different credentials ... they aren't hiring FO's

The regionals currently have more captains than FO's and the situation is progressing. The only hiring is for direct entry captains.

You have lots of options other than regionals. Part 91 and Part 135 jobs are good stepping stones.

The situation with the regional is also not sustainable and will likely lead to one of two outcomes
1) the regionals stabilize and start hiring again
2) the regionals implode and the majors hire people the regionals used to hire

Bottom line - if you want to be a pilot, finish your training, take the jobs you can get, fill the logbook and keep moving forward.

Do you think that ULCCs will replace the regionals when it comes to hiring new CFIs with their ATP written?
I would love to hear your thoughts on that

I’m flattered…. I’m also not Nostrairdamus

If/when the regionals contract to the point that they aren’t a meaningful supply of pilots… everyone is going to be hiring at the legal minimum. What other choice will there be?

The military only has so many pilots
Non-121 civilian only has so many pilots
What else is left?

But the big question in that story isn’t what would happen post-regionals but how and how quickly a post-regional world might arrive

What SHOULD happen is the legacies just absorb their regionals and their airplanes. Why not have 175’s operated by now “mainline” employees that fly their passengers daily in and out of their own hubs?

Don’t flame me. I know it won’t happen…it makes too much sense.

Not flaming, but you saying what “should” happen is what you as a PILOT WANT to happen. As a pilot, you are looking at things pilot-centric. From a company standpoint, it’s NOT what should happen, or it would. Pilot pay is not the only factor here. There are a lot of other costs that keep the regional model less expensive, such as 401k contributions, health care costs and hotel costs and those aren’t just for pilots, but for FAs and all the other personnel that would cost more. As long as there is a penny to be saved, the regional model will exist and it doesn’t take Nostradamus or Dave Ramsey to see that.

I predict it will, eventually. Solves the CA problem with regionals. Pay them something less than 737/320. AA used to publish the rate for E190s.

AA used to publish the rate for E190's, because AA used to fly E190's.

That was part of my point. Group I was about 75% of Group 2 (737/320) pay, if I recall. Is it still in the current contract?