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-   -   Article: Envoy needs 47% fewer pilots (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/envoy-airlines/81289-article-envoy-needs-47-fewer-pilots.html)

What 05-03-2014 02:31 PM


Originally Posted by The Chow (Post 1635736)
We're about halfway through the 824. Then the preferred pilots are supposed to be 30+% of all new hires classes. We're losing another 35-55 pilots per month.

I hope this helps.

TC

We still have about 700 spots left from the 824, hardly ½ way through!

WBTYM 05-03-2014 04:07 PM


Originally Posted by buddies8 (Post 1635672)
that is why we have obama, so not to worry about wealth we will share in the wealth equally. screw the chicken

"OOO--BAAA--MAAA, OOO--BAAA-MAAA", Hope and change, yea baby, redistribute that wealth!! COMMUNISM FOR EVERYONE!!!

-oh yea, but you can't own anything either...

Well, slaves can be happy too...

Bzzt 05-03-2014 04:30 PM


Originally Posted by wbtym (Post 1635781)
"ooo--baaa--maaa, ooo--baaa-maaa", hope and change, yea baby, redistribute that wealth!! Communism for everyone!!!

-oh yea, but you can't own anything either...

Well, slaves can be happy too...

long legged mac daddy

seafeye 05-03-2014 05:14 PM

Your short term memory is failing you.
Bill Clinton left with a balanced budget. George Bush doubled the national debt and military spending was up to almost $800 billion. 1/2 of the worlds total.
If you rack up $100,000 in credit card debt then pass it on to your kids, it grows to $125,000. Is it really your kids fault?

Bzzt 05-03-2014 05:18 PM


Originally Posted by seafeye (Post 1635814)
Your short term memory is failing you.
Bill Clinton left with a balanced budget. George Bush doubled the national debt and military spending was up to almost $800 billion. 1/2 of the worlds total.
If you rack up $100,000 in credit card debt then pass it on to your kids, it grows to $125,000. Is it really your kids fault?

With Russia rattling their sabre that military spending doesn't look so bad.

haymaker 05-03-2014 05:25 PM


Originally Posted by seafeye (Post 1635814)
Your short term memory is failing you.
Bill Clinton left with a balanced budget. George Bush doubled the national debt and military spending was up to almost $800 billion. 1/2 of the worlds total.
If you rack up $100,000 in credit card debt then pass it on to your kids, it grows to $125,000. Is it really your kids fault?

1. Credit card debt dies with the debtor, but is chargeable to the estate.
2. National debt $9.99 trillion 2008, and projected $20 trillion 2016.
3. Public debt $5.8 trillion 2008 projected $14.7 trillion 2016.
Blame that on Bush if it makes you sleep better. IMHO they are both embarrassing fiscal managers.

buddies8 05-03-2014 05:31 PM


Originally Posted by haymaker (Post 1635820)
1. Credit card debt dies with the debtor, but is chargeable to the estate.
2. National debt $9.99 trillion 2008, and projected $20 trillion 2016.
3. Public debt $5.8 trillion 2008 projected $14.7 trillion 2016.
Blame that on Bush if it makes you sleep better. IMHO they are both embarrassing fiscal managers.

if your state allows homestead then file the papers now and build your credit card debt after the homestead and the credit debt will not be applied to the estate.

seafeye 05-03-2014 05:49 PM

Point missed.

lakehouse 05-03-2014 05:55 PM

Rand Paul 2016!!!!

I'll take my chances, I'd rather be pro free market in a strong economy a sound currency, then this bull crud now of lies and schemes. No one is pro people or labor anymore. Big business owns it all, with the fed as their right hand man, this is an awful system setup for,the greedy right now.

kfahmi 05-03-2014 06:50 PM


Originally Posted by rickt86 (Post 1635839)
Big business owns it all, with the fed as their right hand man, this is an awful system setup for,the greedy right now.

You realize society has been structured this way since the dawn of civilization...

ClarenceOver 05-03-2014 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by rickt86 (Post 1635839)
Rand Paul 2016!!!!

I'll take my chances, I'd rather be pro free market in a strong economy a sound currency, then this bull crud now of lies and schemes. No one is pro people or labor anymore. Big business owns it all, with the fed as their right hand man, this is an awful system setup for,the greedy right now.

Not even close to describing to whats coming down the pipe. We are in heavenly times in comparison to how bad it really gets.

fosters 05-03-2014 07:22 PM

The "824", do they have previous #'s at AA or are they given #'s once they get hired on property there? I ask as a US guy, where I stand in relation to those guys, if we can ever get the SLI worked out.

Thedude 05-03-2014 07:50 PM


Originally Posted by fosters (Post 1635876)
The "824", do they have previous #'s at AA or are they given #'s once they get hired on property there? I ask as a US guy, where I stand in relation to those guys, if we can ever get the SLI worked out.

My understanding is that those in the 824 get new numbers when they start class at AA. Basically they are treated as new hires for seniority purposes.

CBreezy 05-03-2014 08:03 PM


Originally Posted by ClarenceOver (Post 1635862)
Not even close to describing to whats coming down the pipe. We are in heavenly times in comparison to how bad it really gets.

I hope your tin foil hat fits snugly. Wouldn't want the govmnt reading them there thoughts.

ClarenceOver 05-03-2014 09:09 PM


Originally Posted by CBreezy (Post 1635908)
I hope your tin foil hat fits snugly. Wouldn't want the govmnt reading them there thoughts.

Are you volunteering to be first in line to the fema camps? ;) Get a clue man. Saying that something isn't right in america should be pretty obvious by now. Do some research.

lakehouse 05-04-2014 01:58 AM


Originally Posted by ClarenceOver (Post 1635935)
Are you volunteering to be first in line to the fema camps? ;) Get a clue man. Saying that something isn't right in america should be pretty obvious by now. Do some research.

I think people lack an education on what's going on. Something has to give with the high debt and printing of money. The logical simple answer is pending hyper inflation. The more complex answer is when you include most of the us dollars are over seas being used as the worlds reserve currency and many counties now are or,trying to opt out. Put the two above together at once and the Great Depression will look good.

bedrock 05-04-2014 02:25 AM


Originally Posted by rickt86 (Post 1635976)
I think people lack an education on what's going on. Something has to give with the high debt and printing of money. The logical simple answer is pending hyper inflation. The more complex answer is when you include most of the us dollars are over seas being used as the worlds reserve currency and many counties now are or,trying to opt out. Put the two above together at once and the Great Depression will look good.


The ace in the hole for the bankster state is the military and the petro dollar. As long as oil is traded in dollars only, there is artificial demand for the currency. Anyone who decides to try and trade out of the currency like Saddam or Qaddafi meets an unfortunate end.

Iran and China have been prevented from building a pipeline due to the US presence in Afghanistan. The Chinese aren't dumping the dollar because they are being allowed to buy up gold at cheaper prices due to Goldman-Sachs suppressing paper gold prices through massive shorting. As long as there is a world demand for oil, the US dollar can survive on the backs of the rest of the world.

SkyMall 05-04-2014 07:59 AM

Since this thread is wandering, I'll throw this in the mix ;)

I recently learned about an internal report that was written toward the end of the Clinton administration which detailed the negative effects of actually paying off the national debt (which was projected to occur in 2012). It's called "Life After Debt" and the author was Jason Seligman.

LifeAfterDebt.pdf

The problem is basically that the entire world uses US Treasury Bonds (our debt) for so many functions that eliminating them all together would cause all sorts of problems. Seligman admits that the world financial market would adapt, but that the issues introduced by eliminating the US national debt completely are pretty significant.

Food for thought..

lakehouse 05-04-2014 08:06 AM


Originally Posted by bedrock (Post 1635978)
The ace in the hole for the bankster state is the military and the petro dollar. As long as oil is traded in dollars only, there is artificial demand for the currency. Anyone who decides to try and trade out of the currency like Saddam or Qaddafi meets an unfortunate end.

Iran and China have been prevented from building a pipeline due to the US presence in Afghanistan. The Chinese aren't dumping the dollar because they are being allowed to buy up gold at cheaper prices due to Goldman-Sachs suppressing paper gold prices through massive shorting. As long as there is a world demand for oil, the US dollar can survive on the backs of the rest of the world.

The Russians are opting out including oil, Iran has for a long time. The last two years has seen a wave of countries in the Asian and Middle East area trading off the dollar and it's growing.

fosters 05-04-2014 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by Thedude (Post 1635895)
My understanding is that those in the 824 get new numbers when they start class at AA. Basically they are treated as new hires for seniority purposes.

Thanks

filler

tom11011 05-04-2014 09:38 AM

Shrinking Envoy by 47% is not as easy as it sounds.

The labor cost structure depends on a certain amount of pilots making the lowest wages to offset the pilots that make the highest wages.

From Unions and Airlines

Consider two regional airlines where new pilots earn $20,000 per year and pilots who've been with the airline for 20 years earn $80,000 per year. Airline A and Airline B fly the same types of planes, have exactly the same cost structure, and have the same percentage of junior versus senior pilots. Suppose now that a fluctuation in demand causes Airline A to have slightly fewer customers and Airline B to have slightly more customers. Airline A will have to furlough a few pilots and Airline B will hire a few.

Airline A would naturally like to furlough its most senior pilots, the ones costing $80,000 per year, or perhaps cut all pilots' monthly hours slightly. Union agreements, however, force it to furlough the most junior pilots. Airline A is thus left with a pilot group that, on average, has more years with the airline than before and therefore has a higher average cost. Airline B, by contrast, just hired a bunch of new pilots and is paying them just $20,000 per year. This means that Airline B's average cost for a pilot is lower than before. Airline B can now move into Airline A's region and offer lower fares. Customers start choosing Airline B over Airline A and the furloughing and hiring intensify.

Union agreements add positive feedback to an already unstable industry. An airline that is successful and growing will enjoy lower costs because of the new pilots being hired for almost nothing. An airline that is shrinking will see its labor costs spike as nearly all flights are operated by highly paid senior crews.

Spoiler 05-04-2014 10:06 AM

a la Comair

Thedude 05-04-2014 12:36 PM


Originally Posted by Bzzt (Post 1635730)
The % is probably over 90, everyone up to Oct 2011 has a flow through and we didn't hire many past that point.

Based on approx 2000 or 90%, it doesn't sound like a reduction in manpower would be an issue. It sounds more like the reduction at Eagle will almost take care of itself over the next 5+yrs through flow/attrition.

Bzzt 05-04-2014 01:17 PM


Originally Posted by Thedude (Post 1636249)
Based on approx 2000 or 90%, it doesn't sound like a reduction in manpower would be an issue. It sounds more like the reduction at Eagle will almost take care of itself over the next 5+yrs through flow/attrition.

Despite what the company is saying, I don't believe they can or will furlough. Downgrades do not seem likely either, as we're losing 20 CA a month to AA alone, that's not counting anyone leaving for other jobs.

WBTYM 05-04-2014 03:27 PM


Originally Posted by seafeye (Post 1635814)
Your short term memory is failing you.
Bill Clinton left with a balanced budget. George Bush doubled the national debt and military spending was up to almost $800 billion. 1/2 of the worlds total.
If you rack up $100,000 in credit card debt then pass it on to your kids, it grows to $125,000. Is it really your kids fault?

Well, you do have someone's talking points down.

Clinton did NOT have anywhere close to a balanced budget,,, until Newt and his 'Contract with America' took over. Look it up.

Clinton even said himself that the budget would not be balanced, but the short lived fiscal responsibility that ended the Clinton administration was not of Clinton's doing. He was too busy putting out fires he lit with his pants down. The Republicans, not of the RINO variety which seem to be the only kind that exist today, were in charge of both houses of Congress if memory serves.

But that certainly doesn't keep Bill from trying to take credit for it.

WBTYM 05-04-2014 03:35 PM


Originally Posted by bedrock (Post 1635978)
The ace in the hole for the bankster state is the military and the petro dollar. As long as oil is traded in dollars only, there is artificial demand for the currency. Anyone who decides to try and trade out of the currency like Saddam or Qaddafi meets an unfortunate end.

Iran and China have been prevented from building a pipeline due to the US presence in Afghanistan. The Chinese aren't dumping the dollar because they are being allowed to buy up gold at cheaper prices due to Goldman-Sachs suppressing paper gold prices through massive shorting. As long as there is a world demand for oil, the US dollar can survive on the backs of the rest of the world.

/\THIS/\

IF Russia and China do dump the dollar in trading oil, this could trigger a bad sequence of events. The end of the petrodollar would bring all those dollars home, where they would manifest in inflation and rising interest rates. That is when things get interesting...

Six months from now could be a whole different world.

The BitCoin intrigues me. If it can recover from the Mt Gox disaster, it could be seen as a refuge or lifeboat for wealth that will otherwise be ****ed away as inflation hits double digits.

ClarenceOver 05-04-2014 03:37 PM


Originally Posted by WBTYM (Post 1636343)
/\THIS/\

IF Russia and China do dump the dollar in trading oil, this could trigger a bad sequence of events. The end of the petrodollar would bring all those dollars home, where they would manifest in inflation and rising interest rates. That is when things get interesting...

Six months from now could be a whole different world.

The BitCoin intrigues me. If it can recover from the Mt Gox disaster, it could be seen as a refuge or lifeboat for wealth that will otherwise be ****ed away as inflation hits double digits.

They might dump it along with everybody else when it collapses and since its the world federal reserve there will be nowhere to run.

WBTYM 05-04-2014 03:47 PM


Originally Posted by ClarenceOver (Post 1636344)
They might dump it along with everybody else when it collapses and since its the world federal reserve there will be nowhere to run.

Well, then you have no other choice than to go head long into the PMs.

tom11011 05-04-2014 04:55 PM


Originally Posted by bedrock (Post 1635978)
The ace in the hole for the bankster state is the military and the petro dollar. As long as oil is traded in dollars only, there is artificial demand for the currency. Anyone who decides to try and trade out of the currency like Saddam or Qaddafi meets an unfortunate end.

Iran and China have been prevented from building a pipeline due to the US presence in Afghanistan. The Chinese aren't dumping the dollar because they are being allowed to buy up gold at cheaper prices due to Goldman-Sachs suppressing paper gold prices through massive shorting. As long as there is a world demand for oil, the US dollar can survive on the backs of the rest of the world.

Building up my gold and silver collection.

Varsity 03-24-2020 07:22 PM

Will people voluntarily downgrade to FO or most take the displacement?

MqWhistleblower 03-24-2020 07:25 PM

What’s the need of posting in a 2014 thread?

Varsity 03-24-2020 07:30 PM


Originally Posted by MqWhistleblower (Post 3010542)
What’s the need of posting in a 2014 thread?

What's old is new again.

It's not possible to bid FO from a captains seat give current contract, correct?

dera 03-24-2020 08:10 PM


Originally Posted by Varsity (Post 3010545)
What's old is new again.

It's not possible to bid FO from a captains seat give current contract, correct?

It'll be a displacement bid. A large one.

highfarfast 03-24-2020 08:12 PM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 3010599)
It'll be a displacement bid. A large one.

What you talking bout' Willis?

martyByrde 03-24-2020 08:46 PM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 3010599)
It'll be a displacement bid. A large one.

furloughs to follow?

BigZ 03-24-2020 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by martyByrde (Post 3010638)
furloughs to follow?

the other way around
if there are furloughs, there would be a displacement bid where some CA get to be CA on different equipment or FO on same/different equipment. All depending on the size of the furlough and what the new relative seniority could hold. FO could probably be displaced from base and or 175 too.

pangolin 03-24-2020 08:57 PM


Originally Posted by Bzzt (Post 1636267)
Despite what the company is saying, I don't believe they can or will furlough. Downgrades do not seem likely either, as we're losing 20 CA a month to AA alone, that's not counting anyone leaving for other jobs.

do you grasp what’s going on?

BigZ 03-24-2020 09:20 PM


Originally Posted by pangolin (Post 3010646)
do you grasp what’s going on?

Irinically, you quoted a post from 2014

Propeller 03-24-2020 09:27 PM

Can we let this thread die again? It's going to be really confusing to keep posting here

pangolin 03-24-2020 09:53 PM


Originally Posted by BigZ (Post 3010663)
Irinically, you quoted a post from 2014

lol. Didn’t realize. Stressful times.


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