Don't come to Envoy until lines improve!
 

Rah may have no cx pay but with these awful lines at envoy you will face equal money loss and same long upgrade.

Ask envoy recruitment at events what's going to be done to fix these awful lines and upgrade time. Till management address that I'd highly advice going elsewhere. I see most lines as 72 hours pay and 13 or less days off with carryover. That's awful with a 7-8 year upgrade. If management doesn't address botH these problems Idk why Anyone would waist their time coming here!!!

Don't come to envoy till lines improve.
 

.....people still apply at Envoy?

Yeah! If I recall correctly, there was a new hire in December. Not a new hire class,..... just a new hire.

dont go anywhere that offers a signing bonus. end of story.

And until you stop telling people to come to envoy your situation will not improve.

No new bodies = bad staffing = bad schedules and no upgrades.

With line values that low, staffing is not the problem. Staffing is a problem when they can't get enough productivity out of pilots...

So you're saying it's better to lead innocent lambs to slaughter if it improves your situation ?

......and some say this profession isn't totally screwed. :cool:

You would think, but it's like this everywhere. I'm convinced scheduling is done by incompetent imbeciles. It must be part of the job description.

Guess no one cares about flow through either, 3 new hires today, all erj Dfw.

72 hour lines sounds like you are overstaffed relative to your peers. The difference between 72 hours at Envoy vs 85 hours at RAH represents about 500 pilots worth of flying at Envoy. Whoah!

Yet we are parking airplanes because we cant staff them. Our union has solutions to the crappy AOS software which creates the lines but a certain turd in DFW refuses to use it.

And how the hell has this thread last this long with out RJ Pilot chiming in? Seriously an Envoy thread shows up and he has like this 6th sense to come in with his good lucks.

Oh well, he's probably off in his shiny GV going to places like Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong.

This right here is spot on.


If they have to throw a "bonus" at you to get you to show up, you're probably making a bad decision.

Quite the opposite. The low time lines have resulted in the company zeroing out on reserves even on good weather days. We are very understaffed, and I truly don't understand what the problem is with the lines. Maybe Jim Schuck is making our schedules, too...

Personally I wouldn't go to either of these airlines but if you had to pick I'd go to RAH....... at least they have a spine and know what the word "No" means when it comes to a ****** contract.

Yet we still manage to zero out the reserve lists.

Ha!! The OG of 4th year FO pay cap with no CX pay and barely any flight benefits? Is that the RAH you're referring to? Saying no takes spine... But what about knowingly working for such crap ops in the first place?

Hehe. Jerry G. couldn't believe it when we were't jumping for joy over more FT promises, and it turns out those on the street aren't either.

Now that they've forced this pile of manure on us, they're going to have to do a hard sell to get anyone on the street to eat this sandwich.

Good luck Jerry. Hope you choke on it.

got that advice from a fedex pilot friend of mine. his interpretation was, throw $10,000 to some in debt kid fresh out of flight training/college and make him sign on the dotted line telling him about how great the life is and he can standby his girlfriend for a weekend in Paris together, and tell him after he has cashed the check that their contract is gonna make them want to quit and do something else.

Lambs to the slaughter? How melodramatic. As if other regionals are "better" at much anything. Even after all that has happened, Envoy still has a contract that's better than most. The others currently have low upgrade time as a leading reason to apply there, but that won't last, and if one isn't hired soon that upgrade will be pretty far down the road.

Oh so now it's the pilots fault your situation isn't improving? You must hold management's hand as they pour the Kool-Aid package in your water and ask them to hold the straw as you sip and say "tell me more about your plan to make this a great regional airline"

Voted in a concessionary contract willingly and overwhelmingly while the airline can't hire fast enough and AA is making record profits all while NOT in bankruptcy. Jump right on that bandwagon. Envoy voluntarily threw itself down to the level of PSA overnight. Before that you guys had a decent contract. You can NOT brag about your concessionary contract.

Envoy's contract is in fact not better than most, do your homework. PSA's turd that you all loved to lampoon is better than Envoy's contract. That SAP they have gives them higher credit and more days off than most are able to attain at Envoy.

Of the wholly owned AAG regionals Envoy is just as big a bottom feeder as anyone else, time to get off the high horse.

Always admired you Sam and not disagreeing with alot of what you say, but I do get a hint of "upset Compass didn't get the rest of the planes" from you sometimes lately. All the regionals have faults, even your precious Compass(what you don't pay for a hotel during training? Who else does this??).

The point of the thread is that Envoy is trying to wrap our turd sandwich up on some BS lies for new hires to devour. Some pilots have some moral fiber and are trying to get the word out: don't come to Envoy still - not that they were in the first place!

Don't come to envoy till lines improve.
 

Oh, for heaven's sake. Talk about completely twisting my words. I never said it's solely the pilot's fault, but thanks for the lame exaggeration. Management destroyed this airline, we gave them the plugs they said they needed to stop the leaks in the sinking ship. We don't need pilots running around poking more holes.



I've answered our position and reasons in previous posts, as have other envoy pilots. At least the ones with some level of maturity. Go dig up those old arguments if you want to, I'm not wasting any more time on that subject.

He's dancing as fast as he can to polish the peanut-laden turd that Envoy has apparently become. If he can't buff it to a high enough sheen, others will see it for what it is as opposed to the Baby Ruth he wants them to think it is. Just talked to a couple of F/O's and they had nothing good to say. Nothing. Apparently a new-hire class of IIRC only 4 just started, so it looks like no stampede is forming and attrition is something like 55-60/month. They both plan to take their contract "bonus" (or whatever it's called) and hit the bricks ASAP.

I don't see how Envoy is going to turn into an upgrade mill and it seems likely Envoy will be in full-blown crisis mode within 6 months depending on how fast they plan to shrink.

How many pilots are getting the bonus? and whats keeping those pilots from jumping ship as soon as they get it? How does Envoy plan on staffing if there is a mass exodus?

Alaska Airlines, for one.

I'm fairly sure there is no "plan" at Envoy.

First of all I'm not sure who Sam is. You can call me that if you want though. It's a good strong Christian name.

Anyway, we don't need any more 175s thank you very much. We have enough on our plates. I have always said (look back at my previous posts to prove it) that "Eagle" should get them. So you're wrong there. No admiration whatsoever of your crap sandwich over at Envoy.

You know who else doesn't pay for a good portion of training hotels? Delta! Alaska Airlines also doesn't pay for hotels. I'm sure there are others. Compass should get their act together and start paying though. I feel terrible for the new hires.

It will eventually but just not in any of our time here at eagle. While a lot of people claim management only looks at THIS quarter, this whole agreement process has showed that they really have a long term plan they want to work on. It's not a SPECIFIC plan like 117 airplanes at this carrier, 54 airplanes at the other carrier, etc but more a generic plan and strategy.

There is no movement at eagle because as we shrink we are flowing and attriting people from all ranks while not hiring YET havent furloughed anyone.

Once we reach the size they want us to (68 145s + 40 175s = 108 or ~1500 pilots) the flow will finally cause movement and lower upgrade time, especially as growth at other carriers stops (PSA namely) they will stop acting as a pilot magnet. This has been the plan all along to have envoy act as the direct entry method to AA all the way from cradle to grave - you sign up as a pipeline instructor, you instruct, go to envoy, go to AA. All on 1 interview.

Again, this is not a 6 month plan - this is the 10 year plan so no, no one here will ever see a "fast" upgrade so I guess my entire point is moot.

This is great, you mainline guys at Compass with your ridiculous hats, what other parts of your Hulus operation is like Delta? What are you going to do with your 30k bonus this year? You really believe you are better than other regionals don't you?

I think they all get the money for ratifying the most recent TA in exchange for concessions. Captains get more. I got the impression that the money isn't changing many minds to stay at Envoy vs. leaving and many of those who don't already have another job lined up are aggressively trying to. I don't think there will be a "mass exodus", just no change from the present 50-60/month exodus already occurring. If they can only put 3 or 4 in a new-hire class, I think that says everything one needs to know. At that rate, Envoy will collapse long before any theoretical stampede of new-hires arrives to save it. Seems like a long-shot bad bet to me to go here. If you've got no other offers and aren't concerned with risking a 121 training failure (every event is a risk) as a newbie to the airlines, I suppose going to Envoy and at least getting some Jet experience isn't a bad idea as long as you accept the likelihood you'll be doing that again within a year or two and may have gained no seniority advantage for the effort (unless Envoy gets merged instead of shut down).

It would seem that it's more attractive to let Envoy wither on the vine though as they have several hundred senior captains with no plans to go anywhere and I can't see Parker paying them their present big bucks when he doesn't have to. Think about this; If Envoy shrinks to say 1000 pilots, 500 will be captains and most, if not all will be topped out at 18 year scale.

I don't see that as being competitive and didn't Parker just demand and get concessions claiming that as the very reason ? I think he's just kicking the can (his specialty) until Envoy is small enough to dissolve. In the interim, he's just trimming costs as much as possible without beating the bushes to scare off the snakes too fast. Doesn't sound like the last part of that is working and so they're going to have to react sooner rather then later and that's not likely to be pretty or good for present Envoy pilots. For some reason, the vision of a piñata comes to mind...........:cool:

I have to disagree with this and see it as wishful thinking. It's predicated on the assumption that at some magical point management will be able to match attrition with attraction. Whatever the number, attrition is only likely to remain constant, if not even increase. Can Envoy at whatever point say at 1500 pilots, suddenly attract and graduate 60/month ?

There simply aren't that number in the new-hire pipeline and you can forget about poaching other regionals to any meaningful degree. No, I foresee the inability to stem the shrinking pilot loss equation at the numbers they may want and thus as the pilot group shrinks too fast and too early, they'll have to react and there will be few good options then for Envoy pilots at least. They'll hit whatever number, but then despite their efforts the deficit will grow greater each month from the inability to replace lost pilots until they start losing market share and then they will act. There is a likely bright spot of delaying that for them. Here at AA, the flow is likely to slow to a trickle or even stop for awhile as hundreds of deferred furloughees return (there are over 1000) over the next year or so as they get 2 years extra LOS if they commit by mid February pending ratification of the present TA and the combination of divisions along with PBS requires as many as 1500 (or more) less pilots to fly the present schedule (no expansion slated till at least 2018) and it all evens out at the rate of retirements. The bottom line, AA may need very few pilots from either the street or flow thru for many months, perhaps even 18 due to furlough returns and scheduling efficiencies mitigating retirements until it balances and that could be awhile. That would be 20 less list to AA each month, but would likely only result in more aggressive outside attrition as impatient Envoy pilots take a better deal elsewhere as at least it's something real as opposed to a hypothetical promise from ethically bankrupt managers and executives with a long history of making promises only to break them later.

Good luck with your hopes for Envoy, but ultimately I see a major haircut, especially with so many 18-year $120,000/year hippies.

I have no hope for this place either, but I appreciate the luck! I love all the luck wishing on these boards.

Good luck

Hey, just giving you my opinion. :cool:

The "good luck" part is weird, I agree and even more so because it's most frequently offered by a certain senior Envoy pilot........in reality, to himself. :rolleyes:

Think you're a bit confused. Also Frontier and Virgin don't pay for hotels during training.


Envoy's new contract is truly one of the worst. They do have solid reserve rules, but when half the airline is on reserve, you need them. Pretty much no soft pay, no min day, only trip guarantee. Allows the company to fly you ACT-DFW-ABI and pay you less than 2 hours, when almost every other regional around would be making at least 3.5 for the day because of min day pay. So instead of having lines that block 72-75 and credit into the mid 80s, you're left with crediting whatever you block. That's awful.

Everyone at envoy was so blinded by the pay scale cuts that they didn't even think about trying to get some money makers in the contract. A 4 hour min day pay, SAP, or some type of trip rig would have helped the terrible schedules.

(Also, you guys might want to look into what was actually going on with your NYC CA rep during the last round of negotiations.)

No upgrade. Stuck at 4 year pay. Meh contract. Bad moral. Who gives about bad lines? Envoy has joined the bottom rung

Let's clear that up. This is a payout for the amendment round bonus we would have already gotten. People are calling it a bribe or a signing bonus, it's not either of those. If people here think it's a bonus for signing, they're not too bright, especially if they thought it was a good reason to sign for.

WTH? If other Compass pilots got a $30k bonus then I need to know because I didn't get one. Dude, we have no bonuses at all. None, zero, zilch...

You might be referring to Endeavor? They get $15k in Sept 2015 then another $15k a year later. Is that what you're referring to?

I sense a little bit of resentment in your post. It's ok, one day you will make it to greener pastures.

It's funny how quickly this became a CP bashing contest when I didn't even mentioned CP. A select few who have it out for CP started this. I was just talking about how crappy the Envoy guys have it since they now, by their choosing, have voted in a second concessionary contract. The first concessionary contract was justifiable since they were in bankruptcy. Adios dude was trying to paint a rose picture about a polished turd so I was reminding him how a turd is still a turd.

Thanks for the clarification. Regardless of what it actually is, the gist I got was that it wouldn't shorten or alter the plans of those who are intent on vacating at the first opportunity.