Envoy FOs to possibly get $20k retention!
 

Someone made a post to say that Envoy has too many pilots and not to come here. Just wanted to share the other half of the paragraph the other OP did not, because it looks like FOs may get $20k. It deserves its own thread as much as the other topic does.

Aren't you actually misleading. He said you will not need a retention program. All managent leaves hope for the gullible when disseminating bad news.

How am I misleading? I just quoted exactly what was written. Read it for yourself. He said there would be no unilateral retention program, ala Endeavor. Someone else chose to just post that portion of the paragraph. Here is the whole paragraph, from the union email.

Your speculation about hope after bad news is just that. I generally agree with your speculation. However! The previous post about envoy was still misleading and obviously serving an agenda because half the paragraph was left out. I am setting that straight: management is still working on a retention deal, according to them and the union. It will be for FOs only. I hope they get it.

The only people who will get bonus's are those who are going to see the airline through to its orderly shutdown next year.

This place isn't going anywhere next year.

Oh no? So they want to shrink it just small enough so the 300 lifer captains do not have to seek employment elsewhere? They're doing it for them right? American and Envoy think its ok to have the average longevity payscale at year 15 or so right? You are being whipsawed right now, as we speak.

At 1200-1500 total pilots as the goal for envoys low point in 2017, there would be 600-750 CA spots. With 300 of us "lifers" around, that is 300-450 open CA spots. The rest of the seniority list is flowing pretty steady, so longevity will shrink. For example, even with the deferrals returning, it is modestly estimated that all the 824 wil be gone before 2017. The protected pilots are 10 years or less currently, with a big gap in years 5 and 8(no one hired spring 2008-2010)
You also have about 100 of us lifers retiring in the next 4 years.

1500 is what they told you to keep the doors from falling off. If their true intentions were announced.....

Forgot you have the crystal ball and know exactly what's going to happen a year down the road.

He is right: that very well could be their plan. All of this is smoke and mirrors right now. Actions like an executed retention plan would show their intentions. Doing nothing would also show their direction. Right now we just have to wait and see. We are rapidly approaching the point where their intentions become obvious though.

The parts that matter are "under review by AAG" and " if approved by AAG". Correct me if I am wrong but Endeavor did not talk about theirs beforehand, Delta simply made it happen. AAG has been good over the last three years stringing our Fo's along with this type of info.

I agree it is all smoke in mirrors right now, but I don't see how they could manage to have this place shut down by next year. Hopefully, we will see something here in the next six months that gives some kind of guidance of some light at the end of the tunnel. Seems like we have just been getting strung along for the time being though.

I do know this- Fabregas can't give a retention bonus to a select group of already employeed pilots without giving it to all pilots. He can give a signing bonus to a new hire pilot, but that's the extent of it.

In the next 5 years 1/3 of all US airline pilots will retire. There is going to be winner and loser regional airlines, some are going to survive but many will not. When you are knee deep into a situation, sometimes its hard to see with clarity what's really going on. But from an outsiders point of view, I just don't see how anyone can see it any other way. Envoy is a shrinking airline with a top heavy labor structure. One way or the other the balance is going to be restored. The shareholders demand it.

Really? Where does it say that? They gave us $12.5k and FOs $7.5k just recently. They can give one group less than the other. Why can't they give nothing to one and more to the other?

You're union signed off on it that's why. But if you think your union and Captains are going to sign off on an endeavor style bonus and captains are going to see nothing out of it I highly doubt it.

Do you get off on seeing an airline shutdown and thousands of people lose their jobs? It seems that way.

Your union would have to sign off on it and why would they? They can give all pilots a $20k yearly increase or none and watch their attrition skyrocket.

Well I'm a Captain and would say I would love to see some money too but let's face it, they don't need to retain me; quite the opposite. That being said, I have made out much better than any current FO so far. We definitely have some selfish pricks here, but I know there are plenty like me that would rather see FOs get something rather than all of us get nothing.

It almost seems like he used to work here, ran off somewhere else, and now wants to see this place fail so he feels justified in his choice.

No but I also don't believe in snips, snails, and puppy dog tails either. There is a price to be paid for accepting $20,000 style endeavor bonus's.

No doubt that is very big of you, even commendable. But you need 51% to agree with your point of view. I'm trying to be realistic that's all.

I didn't, didn't, and don't.

But see it from the bean counters point of view. Envoy is simply too top heavy in the cost of labor to continue as a going concern. Why else with AAG be doing what they are doing? As attrition from the bottom accelerates, the situation becomes worse.

Your management has been screwing you every step of the way. You don't allow them to raise pay for FO's only with the leverage you now have.

I've heard that AAG is looking at purchasing a large amount of 100 to 150 seat aircraft to be flown by mainline in anticipation of its regionals shrinking overall over the next few years. I also know that United is looking at the same thing. They've been looking at the new Bombardier C-Series and an improved E-190.

Perfect, that means quicker flows.

To carry that further. In theory, with 300 of 1500 not leaving; you have 1200 that will leave. With 300 a year flowing to AA the entire list would be cycled in 4 years.

Folks, let's not live in a fantasy world here. I truly believe that the company is just stringing us along with these rumors of bonuses, rainbows, and unicorns. They're not willing to put their money where their mouth is. I think they're just making up these rumors in hopes it will retain pilots; why pay to retain when you can retain based simply on rumors?

You could be right. You could also be wrong. Your opinion is noted. My point is also opinion. None of us have a crystal ball. For now though, the company has done nothing but blow air. Let's see what happens. I don't believe FOs should stay here if they can find a better deal. I think Endeavor is a better deal for our NY FOs who live in that area as well.

When are the CRJ's scheduled to go PSA? Whenever that is, you can rest assured that a DISPLACEMENT bid will come.

GoodLuck!

The first 700 leaves Envoy in May 2015.

And the remainder in 2017.

RJ knows exactly when they are leaving. Stop feeding the troll. Though you are stating facts, I would be careful how you come across in an envoy thread.

Thanks for showing some candor. I just saw him as stating facts though. And yeah, RJ trolls. We all know that.

Not trying to stir the pot. We're all trying to get out of the regionals. I don't like what's happening at Envoy. I have friends who work/worked there and I know you guys are a great pilot group. But I and CLT were indeed just stating facts.

Yeah that's what I am saying: you were just stating facts. I didn't read into it.

Psa is huge pyramid scheme in before 2017 many if not most regionals will offer better than what you do now. If you only know what's coming, especially to those hired now for a fast upgrade.

Is PSA somehow forbidden from giving away cash too? When the hiring spree begins to decline, I'm sure they will do no different than anyone else and start throwing money around to pilots.

So you know what's coming?

Anyway, PSA continues to bank on the fact that the fast upgrade will bring in pilots. It has worked until this point and the company keeps applying small bandaids to push the fast upgrade out a little further here, a little further there. First it was the Eagle 700s, then the additional 24 900s. The music is going to stop here pretty soon based on number of pilots alone, this doesn't take into account all the FOs that have been bypassed due to not having 1000SIC.

Management is going to need to play another card. The growth card is probably no longer an option, as I can't see them wanting us any larger than 150 acft. For some reason they have always been against giving bonuses. I've heard it's because "If everyone's doing it it doesn't set us apart". You can see how that is flawed, especially if you are the only one NOT giving bonuses.

They could increase our hiring agreement but that becomes a double edged sword for obvious reasons, considering how many pilots we already have on the list.

But you would agree though for right now the PSA strategy is apparently sound. I'm hearing classes of 30-40 every two weeks pushing through. PSA must be doing something right. My point is at some point in the future maybe the strategy changes (bonuses, higher pay, something else, etc..) but for right now they seem to be hitting the mark if these hiring numbers are accurate.

First of all I wouldn't get excited about anything happening. We've been led on by the potential for retention bonuses for awhile now.

However if I was to guess what Pedro's plan was. I would say it's probably something similar to paying all pilots above step 4 at the captain pay rate. This would get voted in because it would pay protect captains in the event of possible displacements. And it would limit the pool of people eligible from envoy to longevities of 5-10 years. They don't want to pay the lifers who aren't going anywhere regardless, they don't want to pay those with imminent flow, they think this would be enough of a carrot to keep the junior FOs around at least it's a guarantee of captain wages at year 5. As the airline shrinks and upgrades get to 4 years the program ends because no one is eligible for it. So this will not be a recruitment program it will possibly be strictly a retention program.

Just my opinion but that is the only thing that actually makes sense.