What's useless is making representations with no ability or willingness to back them up with specifics, like the math they are based on. Subjective assertions like yours do nothing for anyone as is claiming those who ask questions you cannot or will not answer are "trolls"

No one is asking you to take my advice, myself included. My answers to others you're free to ignore. If you want to believe the other upgrade/flow representations here, knock yourself silly.

BTW, since you claim not to be an Envoy pilot, why do phrase this post this way ?

My B.S. detector always redlines from your posts .

No supporting math = no credibility.

End of story here.

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Hey sayalt,

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We are really flattered by all this attention you rain down on us! Don't you have a tea party rally to attend? Maybe a Confederate flag to knit? Or just stare lovingly at that Trump poster you have on your room's ceiling.

10 more CA vacancies just announced. Not earth shattering, but after the months and months of 0, it's welcome news. Especially on the heels of last month's announcement of 80+ upgrades.

I consider myself a middle of the road kinda guy and like to interject my perspective from time to time. With the FO retention bonus, movement getting people off reserve, commuter hotels, free iPads, and OT pay, things are much better now than when I started 3 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot to fix. Our reserve system is broken and should have been fixed long ago. The schedules have long sits, are low time, and could be much better. The flow is at least 3-4 years away for me and a lot could happen in that time.

However, I think being at a wholly owned will work out well. As regionals are unable to find pilots, current pilots become a more important asset to keep.

We were beaten down and forced into a concessionary contract just 1.5 years ago. During that time, it was obvious they wanted people to leave, and many did. The tone has changed, and it's not just words, this place feels different now. It could change again, but the way everyone is hiring, I don't think it's likely.






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Great looking mainline plane brah! It's awesome that you are already AA pilots flying that.

10 more upgrades a week after the 87 awards. Next class rumored to be full (don't have numbers, sorry.). The quicker you get in the better. The flow goes to a lower ratio for anybody hired past DOS which would have been a little over a year ago. So conceivably, waiting a month to get hired could cost you more then a month to flow. I believe PDT has this same issue. PSA isn't even worth mentioning lol

The smell of desperation runs very strong through all the Envoy threads. It's very sad.

Crappy schedules, long sits, forever reserves, low pay, etc...

...but hey, you have been promised a flow to the worst mainline carrier out there by the least trustworthy CEO in the airline industry.

Wheee!

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Oh you sad little man. There is no desperation here. None at all actually. Unlike other carriers, envoy is actually selective.

As for worst legacy airline? Even though you're a self-proclaimed finance wizard I'm going to throw some rough numbers at you. 2nd year group 2 pay in the 130's making 76 hours/month = 120k/year. Obviously this doesn't include anything you pick up over the 76, whether it be line value or OT. Add on 16% direct contribution to your 401k. That's 140k/year for second year pay. Plus any profit sharing. Yeah, it's really terrible over there. In fact, I just ran into a friend who flowed last year and he is happy as a clam on the 73. Living in base helps but that's besides the point.

Not that I give a damn about Skywest, but heard from multiple sources that it's tough (not impossible) to get on with United due to them not wanting to poach their own feed. Whether it's true or not, I couldn't really care. It was just interesting to hear. Good luck to you Sir.

Being selective seems to be working. With the dismal new hire numbers, it's obvious that Envoy is hiring "AA" pilots.

I noticed you in the Expressjet thread "selling" Envoy. I thought you limited yourself to posting in only the Envoy thread.....since you work here.

Merely telling a new-hire about other options for ORD. Is there something wrong with that? I notice you don't post at all in the Allegiant thread, why is that? Buyers remorse?

And believe me, I'm not selling envoy. Whether or not we get new-hires really has no bearing on when I flow. I'm slated to be gone in less than two years. The only reason I post is to expose trolls like yourself who clearly have ulterior motives for not wanting anybody to come to envoy and to give real intel on envoy. I still can't figure out your deal. If I had a new job, why would I care about what has happened at my previous company? I have many friends who have moved on to bigger and better things and do they care about what happens at envoy? Sure, they're curious. But they concentrate on themselves and their careers. Not the careers of others.

Hey Ag386 watch your fuel load. I heard that Allegiant is cutting down on it. Man you must really miss Envoy, Lol!!!

Nice way to restart the thread.

Bored?

Second year pay is more like 105k maybe a bit more if you have a block on Group II, to hit 120k you need to be on the 190CA position.

Still good but no where near your numbers. Second year pay is I think around $112 or it was for me. Third year at min guarantee long call is around $118k.

I'm not looking at Group I pay, only Group II. 3% increase per year means that second year group II pay on 1January 2019 is $126.54. First year is $84.45.

2019? Wow, talk about counting your chickens before they hatch.

Not to mention that 3% raise is just to keep all the rates even with inflation, so while the number sounds bigger than it is today, in relative terms, it's not.

Ok Captain Obvious, not trying to be a smartas but the entire context of the post was for a new-hire to envoy. No matter how optimistic you are, a new-hire today isn't flowing to AA prior to 2019. Make sense? Sheesh...

Listening to you really gets old. I don't know what kind of juice you are on, but you have to wise up. Envoy isn't the real American Eagle and it sure isn't some happy place like you are trying to make it out to be.

I was hired in late 2000 and I still have over 175 guys between me and my turn to flow. I'm 824 which helps me with not sweating things too much in regards to finally getting out of here. However, with the Letter T returns I'm not expecting to flow until December of this year at the earliest. Possibly even into the 1st quarter of next year. Since I'm this close, I'm sticking it out to flow. I've got apps out as a backup but even so. No calls. Applied to UA, DL, AS. No one else, yet. I've got a clean record, nearly three thousand TPIC and some volunteer stuff on the resume but still, the phone isn't ringing. I will say I haven't put in a huge effort yet because of my position, I do think that I should be out of here by this time next year. And it can't come soon enough.

I have to be honest and say this place sucks. Worse than it ever has since the day I was hired. The management here will tell you one thing and turn around and do something totally different. They have zero concern for you. I'm a commuter and the schedules are absolutely terrible and have been for months on end. All of this baloney about upgrading quick and flowing in 6 years is just more of the same from a management that gets its kicks from duping the poor saps who fly their planes. The contract is violated repeatedly and God help you if you are on reserve. We have had five bases closed on us in the past 4 years and Boston closed sometime before all of this. I commute now because I have to. I'm not yanking my kids out of school to move to DFW or ORD for Envoy.

I personally believe that the company will flow the 824 out since that was an arbitrated agreement. If I were on the list beyond that, I would seriously be looking elsewhere and networking like there is no tomorrow. We can't get any new hires to speak of and at some point the rubber has to meet the road and there have to be pilots to fly the planes that are left. PSA obviously can't even staff enough to take the rest of our CRJ's. One thing I can guarantee you, this management doesn't hesitate to violate our contract and they will not hesitate on screwing with the flow if they need their planes in the air. Believe me, they don't give a hoot about what any Envoy pilot thinks and the union has no teeth and will just give in to whatever the company decides.

If you didn't get the picture above, life here is just about awful. The company could fix it but they never have before and they won't this time either. They shot themselves in the foot running off about 1200 pilots in about 4 years. They see they need them now but they will never admit they were wrong. Who will suffer for it? The poor guys after the 824 on the list when they realize they might be stuck at Envoy for a long time to come.

Hmmm... another long time listener, first time poster with the same message. Isn't this the same way ag386 "introduced" himself. Tell me one guy that thought after Parker worked so hard to take away Profit Sharing from Mainline and Eagle that he would turn around and give Profit Sharing voluntarily! I never in a million years would have thought that would happen. That is the thing about the future, one can speculate all kinds of crazy scenarios. The flow is contractual, whether the easy way or the hard way, it will work. We even have a precedence set when it come to honoring the flow.

Another ag386 account. Big surprise...

There's a big difference between contractual profit sharing and profit sharing as non-precedent setting largesse.

Another thought about the flow - don't forget about those few hundred super-senior types that tried to inject themselves in the flow recently. Expect several to opt in after the list has been gone through. Remember, they start at the top again after they get to #824 and start the PP group.

Sorry you've had such a bad time dfwguy. I never claimed that this place was rainbows or unicorns, but it's FAR from a horrible place to work. No, it's not like the original American Eagle. Get over it and move on, I have.

Enjoy AA, maybe you will be happy there. Or maybe not. Probably not actually.

Obviously, Parker's APC mafia enforcers and mgmt shills are willing to strike down even their own who don't tow the company's new hire sales pitch. As sad as it is predictable. Do you guys get paid by the post/thread?

Beat your employees down enough, and eventually their expectations will be lowered. That describes Parker's American perfectly.

Threaten the jobs of the most vocal union reps, and they drastically change their tune.

Tell your management pilots to become social media salesmen, spinning in just enough half-truths and positive conjecture to blind potential new hires.

And management wonders why no one wants to become an airline pilot anymore.

I'm not surprised. The Envoy Patrol will eat their own if what someone says doesn't align with their interests.

Let's just see how those new hire classes stack up throughout the year and evaluate again. If they get close to their target numbers, then I'll admit I'm flat wrong. I just don't think there are enough even if Envoy got ALL new hires available.

All those old threads have long been debunked in your absence. The math doesn't add up hence why we are always reliving this topic.

I think it is obvious though that if Envoy can't hire the 40 pilots per month needed to support the flow numbers you are projecting (again projecting, let's not forget envoy pilots flowing today are 16 year employees), then the flow falls apart. Do you agree that Envoy pilots cannot all flow to American leaving Envoy with 0 pilots?

I'm afraid you aren't going to get anything out of the Cuj other than the typical company drivel, i.e. 2.5/6, everybody flows, Envoy has a great contract, it's a great time to be an Envoy pilot, etc.

My feeling is that he will totally brush off and not even address the question regarding the need for new hires as do all of those on the Envoy sales team do here. Probably because management has instructed them to do so.

SkyWest Pilot

Allegiant Pilot, or it is Piedmont, what was your last lie again?

PSA pilot, how is your hiring going?



I am sure glad that I don't spend as much time thinking about your companies as you guys spend thinking about mine.

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Not "thinking" about your company per se, sweetheart. Rather, people like you, lying to NEWBs for your own personal gain and career progression, starting thread after thread to lure them into a chithole so you can get out of it.

American has the newest and most modern fleet in America??? Hahahaha. Those MD-80's are state-of-the-art

Get a freakin life dude and go troll somewhere else. I'm glad the mods at least removed some of your trashy posts. Shouldn't you guys be landing on fumes in Aspen? Yeah, that happened last week. Great job!!

Sounds like you are the one needing the tissue. Obviously, envoy's success and the flow scare the **** out of you. Truth be told, if I were in your position, I would be scared too. After AA hires Flowthroughs, then Military Pilots, then those who can check the right boxes, it doesn't leave a whole lot of new hire spots for you. United is well on their way with to filling most of their new hire positions with Commutair, ExpressJet and military pilots as well. Good luck fighting over what's left. Yup, if I were you, I would be scared too.

Now I've heard it all. A person should be scared ****less because they are NOT at Envoy. LOL!

I'm going to recommend that you be scared ****less if hired in 2007 or after and employed by Envoy. You'll be waiting on that flow for a lonnnngggg time.

Now I've heard it all. The mantra of the anti-envoy crowd has always been that we're touting the 2.5 year upgrade/5 year flow and saying its a guarantee (nobody has ever said that.) Then you come on here and state as fact that the flow will not work as advertised and anyone hired post 2007 will be "waiting for a lonnnnng time?!"

I'm sorry but you don't have a crystal ball and are also someone who clearly lacks good judgement based on your recent career move.

Shouldn't you be studying up on those memory items for Allegiant? I mean engine failures seem to be a pretty common occurrence their ;) Again, great career!!!! Excuse me while I try and contain my laughter...

So you're saying you

Cracks me up! :D

Frogs slooooowly cooking in a proverbial pot, calling others "scared" to join them.


Yep!

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Well, to be fair to the haters, there are a few here that are calling 2.5/6 (or 5.5, 5) the real deal, along with hundreds of upgrades and more hundreds of flows. But I can't think of anybody here who actually thinks it's going to happen without overcoming the already beaten to death subject of the hurdles in the way.

But here, one extreme feeds the other; the haters fuel the salesmen who fuel the haters...ad nauseam. But don't let the idea that the rest of us with a reasonably guarded and cynical outlook on ENY's promises get in the way of being called conspirators, salesmen, spineless or spreading negativity about the company and being the reason management's beautiful plans are failing. No matter how skeptical or optimistic we might be.

Just like politics. If you're not a commie on the government teat you must be a bomb dropping neo-con screaming "Drill baby, drill!"

No room for the middle, or reason, anymore. Drowning in the sea of extremist noise.

SayAlt, how is your job hunt going? Or are you planning on staying at Skywest "mainline"? Haha

Yeah, I'm sure they guys that passed up the chance to go to AA on 4th year pay are just lined up at the door and licking their chops to commute to reserve on 1st year pay while five years closer to retirement!

Those who were content with riding out their career living in base in MIA or NY, but then had their base close on them, are the ones most likely to make the decision to go to AA once the 824 are gone. I'd estimate this number at less than 50.