Envoy: Direct Path to American Airlines
 

In...........

oh look, diva started another envoy thread

Take out envoy and insert Piedmont and that's what was posted on their site...


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PSA as well. That's weird, ;).

Yeah all three of those videos were beyond lame. Come on Isom put a LITTLE effort into it!

Move over robo-calls, they got a video!!!

Do you really think this is worthy of ANOTHER envoy thread?

The only good thing about that video, was the first suggested video below it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BcUyC32VD6E

Hire in at Envoy and you'll go direct to AA......in about 10 years, maybe.

Trollin' trollin' trollin


You're very lucky I'm not a moderator, Diva. I would delete this thread and you would be banned from these forums permanently.

How many mandatory retirements are there?
What percentage of each class is filled from envoy?

Your statement is inaccurate on those two points alone.

It's basic math, ever heard of it? It's less than six years.

So, why do you invent things that are outright false with no factual data to support your lies?

I don't see you in the Mesa or othe regional threads telling them doom and gloom. You don't even work at envoy.

You sir are a troll, and if the moderators here had any ethics they'd enforce their own rules and ban you.

Well, if the ALPA numbers are correct. I should go in 2019, by then I would be 8yrs in the company almost 9.

Now, it all depends, that's with the bare minimums and no attrition. I think it could be late 2018.

I said the path down to 6 yrs is on the way.

How much hiring did AA do when you were first hired? Very little, probably none. Therefore, if there was no hiring there were also no flows from Eagle. It's that simple. Today it's different.

OK Cuj, basic math. I've added it up. The absolute best case scenario says, yes, it is possible. It's still not FACTS. However, with no more than 10 to 12 new hires per month, just how is Envoy planning to replace all of these pilots leaving via flow and attrition? Just take a look at the hiring numbers so far this year. It's getting really ugly everywhere.

Since Envoy is now down in the mid 1800's, you are really close to being "right-sized." Previously, they could afford to lose the bodies when they were shrinking. Since PSA can't staff it's planes, Envoy is still responsible for the 35 CRJ's for who knows how long into the future. In addition to the few extra 140/145 frames that are being returned from storage and other carriers.

So, how about pulling your head out of your rear end and use whatever real thinking power you may have.

How is Envoy going to replace these guys so YOU can flow? Better yet, why don't you stop spreading misinformation here as well. Seems like a ban is in order for you too.

I wouldn't buy anything this guy is selling. He's just a salesman and full of it.

I would ask you to please provide the math that backs up your assertions. You are arguing a position based on "factual data", so for the benefit of all, please provide yours. Personally, I think his estimate is a bit long, but yours is too short. The only thing they both share are that they are uncertain projections as there are too many unidentified variables possible to make either projection a certainty.

Again, for everyone's benefit, please substantiate the projection of a flow to AA for the pilots in the last class to be at AA in less then 6 years or Charlie Bucket from last May. This is not trolling and accurate info has nothing to do with "doom and gloom", so continuing to beat that dead horse serves no purpose. You refused my last request and leveled the same baseless claims at me and I'm hoping for a little more success this time.

Of course..............if this is "April Fools" on everyone here, then you got me ! :rolleyes:

Exactly. Also the only flow was for the 824s. Next year, the flow was extended to everyone in the company. Then bankruptcy happened.

In my first year here I moved around 400 numbers up, because of the flow and attrition. It seems it's happening again slowly...

What's your opinion on Envoy reaching the "critical staffing" level that I've been discussing? Do you think that AA will follow in United/Delta's footsteps and bring more current regional flying to mainline OR do they double down on keeping three WO's, a "portfolio" of other regional feed and sticking with the plan they've had all along?

If it's the latter, I see no way that Envoy can flow more than just a few a month with the tepid numbers of new hires that have been showing up.

Hey, I thought this thread was doing fine as I have nothing against people selling Envoy here (even though I think it won't do much good). But........what is needed is ACCURACY in the claims and representations and I don't know who could argue with that. IF they are going to argue X time to flow to AA, I think at the very LEAST, the math projections should demonstrate that and if they do, fine, but with the caveat that they are only hopeful projections based on the most optimistic environment going forward over half a decade.

If Cujo's math supports a flow to AA in less then 5 years for new-hires of today, then I think they should be able to honk that horn, if they so choose. We KNOW the 2.5 upgrade claim is bunk though and we SEE that Envoy is falling WAY short in recruitment and those two factors are part of the flow equation and so already, that utopian optimistic environment which must be CONSISTENT over the next 6 years is already unmet.

The question then becomes, is the regional pilot environment expected to get better or worse as the years roll by ?

I'm not sure if it is true, but I have heard as many as 500 pilots are enrolled in the pipeline program. I am not sure how many of those are there for Envoy. I still believe AAG will have to make it more lucrative to attract the numbers of pilots we will need. They may be able to pull out of the new hire problem just fine. Time will tell

Well, I guess I nipped a little of that in the post above before reading this. :cool:

From my POV, unless Envoy starts raking in 40/month immediately, then contraction occurs and contraction is NOT a good reinforcer of maintaining any flow projection in the 5-6 year range that is now claimed. Once Envoy becomes an RAH or PSA and cannot itself maintain stability in its present feed footprint, then Parker makes his next move of shifting.....or more accurately REshifting assets and flying away from Envoy so as not to overburden. Obviously, the primary goal will be to protect E-175 ops and so look for smaller E-jets to go back to the boneyard, which is easy and quick. At some point though, a longer term plan for ALL the WO's must be embraced and acted upon considering the realities in the regional pilot procurement business. What that is could be one of several moves and I suspect now, old "kick the can" Doug is probably being fluid in his plans as there is still time to do that.

As for the flow, it will continue at minimum aggregate rate until the 824 are gone, which due to Letter T could be from a couple of months to as long as early next year. They may or may not trickle some flows during the process and/or may stop at any point DURING that process if longer then anticipated. I would think presenting the most positive environment to get through the busy Summer season will occur, but come the slow doldrums of fall, if Letter T's are still rolling in, any trickle might not be needed. Once the 824 are gone, I would anticipate metering to minimum flow rate and what is that.........like, 25/month ? At any rate, in fairly short order (within 18 months), I'd expect possible consolidation via merger or asset (which includes pilots) acquisition from failed regionals and as Doug says, "the landscape has changed".

The landscape is always changing at this legacy/regional network and so nothing can be counted on tomorrow and anyone who claims such is truly reading tea leaves.

Even if Envoy did have 500, they all wont be available in the time frame Envoy would need them to maintain present size. Considering what else is out there (virtually nothing), they'd need the entire pipeline within the next 18 months and that assumes EVERYONE in that pipeline is coming to Envoy which doesn't sound realistic. Additionally, pipeline pilots are usually bound to academic schedules and must complete college educational requirements too, so they are only spit out into the airlines in periodic spurts like when semesters end.

I'm skeptical this source of pilots will be anything more then a fraction of those needed by ALL regionals going forward and airlines will need more while this source stays stable, at best.

Moving up 400 numbers is fine unless the total pilot count dropped by that amount. Moving up 400 numbers with a static pilot count and a contracting pilot count are two VERY different things. The critical key is can Envoy maintain its present pilot count in the future (for 6 years) to ensure their count does not contract which is required for your path to AA to meet claims ?

Their under six year projection was based on newhires now and since last May. Comparing that to guys who've been here when there was no flowing due to no hiring at AA is not a valid comparison.

Their math on flow being under six years for those hired after last May does work just based off mandatory retirements alone.

That doesn't mean any number of things couldn't upset the apple cart; but that is pure speculation. I actually expect it to shorten as more guys leave for other airlines as hiring picks up.

What's factual is the flow is and has been working the past 5 years catching up on all the guys who've been trapped here during the lost decade.

AAG has been doing much better than AMR ever did at keeping the flow going. Not perfectly, and those issues are being dealt with in the appropriate manner.

There are many things that need fixing. However, their plan to create a cradle to grave career is progressing pretty well.

Ah...........it's their math that you're going on ?

I see. Is this the same math source that is still claiming a 2.5 year upgrade ? :cool:

At any rate, please present the specifics of their math that you are validating here. It would be much appreciated.

Does the same go for stupid financial advice?

This board is largely useless when you have the same two trolls posting over and over all of these assumptions they are making that have no basis whatsoever in fact. And to top it off, neither one of them work here.

Cujo's posting is correct. The math works. Someone who could only get hired at Allegiant, a severe downgrade for an Envoy FO by the way (might as well go to Great Lakes), and someone who slipped through the hiring process cracks by flowing over to AA from a long ago flow agreement very obviously cannot do math correctly.

AAG is truly in the process of making this a cradle to grave program. Their plans are to have Envoy as the premiere regional and the model by which all other carriers follow suit. We are already 95% there. A few adjustments and tweaks are being made but as you can see, the FLOW WORKS. It's been working. Not like when eaglefly was hired and only had to do an "Eagle" interview. Now, the interview process is based exactly on the the AA interview footprint so that there are no longer anyone "slipping through the cracks."

Keeping the CRJ's indefinitely, EMB 140's and 145's returning to the property, and continued delivery of 175's are setting Envoy up for success. We just announced 87 upgrades last month. You can expect everything management has announced in the past to come to fruition.

Ah...so we have to base our descision on your Envoy cataclysmic predictions that always fail Mr. Eaglefly Nostradamus? The last person we would take an advise from this forum is you.

How about this one. Where's Charlie Bucket's upgrade as advertised? Junior CA is 3/08. Ol' Charlie is supposed to upgrade this November.

Just like I mentioned to Cujo. Where are your FACTS? Not projections. You can project all day long and it may or may not happen. Seems like whenever we ask you and Cuj to provide facts, you conveniently disappear only to show up later blasting out some sales pitch over and over and over.

More inaccurate info from you

The 2.5/6 was announced last May.
This means 2.5 years would be November 2017.

basic math a problem?

Personally, I think the 2.5 is a bit optimistic, but outright lying like you do doesn't help anybody.

I'm putting you in the same category as eaglefly.

Not quoting you anymore or wasting time with you. On ignore you go.

Maybe, seeing if you are on your toes.

So, even with it being next November. How are you going to go from a current junior CA of 3/08 to a junior CA of 5/15 in 13 months?

What about your outright lying and selling on this thread? Constantly 2.5/5.5 which you know ain't gonna work. I'm putting you in the same category as CR700.

I work here champ. Longer than you have I am certain. There are plenty that work here that have spoken up against what you are misrepresenting.

Wow. So you flame at guys that aren't providing facts and then you, yep, provide supposition as fact. Allegiant pays more. End of story. At least you aren't saying JetBlue and Spirit are downgrades too still because that (IMO) really made you look dumb.
As far as the "Math" working - it's fuzzy math at best. I don't think anyone is really arguing against your math - it's the way you try to make the flow out as a solid plan when it's not and hasn't been in the past.


That's great! AAG are such awesome caring people! I'm so glad they have a robot like yourself to trumpet for them!
The flow works? Okay, for the people going now, the flow worked, 16 YEARS LATER!

The TRUTH for a prospective new hire pilot at envoy:
You are being "promised" a flow to AA by the very people that have broken many "promises", both contractual and verbal.
What you get right now is a job at a regional where the vast majority of employees, from pilots to gate agents, are disgruntled. You will get less days off than most regionals and sit reserve much longer. Those are the facts of the case. Notice every time I bring them up, a company trumpet comes in and "misdirects" back to the precious flow? One supposed "normal" FO has come on to talk about how his life isn't so bad here at envoy, and actually MADE my case with his Stockholm Syndrome!

Do you want to work for people that are being opaque with you from the start? Dont trust these people.

One last time

Both you and eaglefly should go read all the old threads. The math has been explained repeatedly already. The math hasn't changed, in spite of common core.

Do a little research yourself; all the info is out there already.

I mostly now only post on lost weekends at work. Home time is now reserved for family. If that's disappearing then so be it. Try asking before making more false assumptions.

You need to get the wax out of your ears or take reading comprehension classes. Crusader and I agree more than disagree. my opinion on the 2.5 is and has been public; you just choose to ignore it, and selectively don't quote posts that don't meet your talking point.

The majority of Envoy pilots can recognize people to be ignored.
You and eaglefly made the team.
Bubye

There are definitely issues with the working conditions. No disagreement there.

Guess you are just a company trumpet like PilotCrusader is talking about above. I'm saying the same things he is but you try to brush him off hoping he'll go away. Hoping that since it's only one post out of hundreds and the few remaining prospects will brush right past it.

As for this video - it is just telling propaganda at how little AA is really willing to throw at this issue. I mean I'm sure it took a little ego swallowing by doofus Isom: this time last year our union met with Isom to outline the problems at Eagle. He did almost nothing.

The true underlying issue is that they are working people like a sweat house. The schedules are the worst they have EVER been and they have stayed that way for years now. They won't change that unless absolutely neccesary. That costs big money and big ego. Making a video - mehh. Hitler made plenty.

Great, now we have his girlfriend advocating for him.

Well it was a nice couple days of civility while it lasted.