Seriously? You may want to check out CLT Guys giant post on the PSA thread man. Page 284 I believe. It sounds pretty horrible over there. Good luck.

He's trolling hard. Look at his newest avatar.

But the CLT Guy said is "not as bad as Envoy". I would say they are in worst shape than us. Being bigger give us more flexibility.

All 3 AAG wholly owneds are hurting in their own ways right now and it is all being exacerbated by AAG's management not being willing to raise the FO pay and improve the contracts. They keep offering bonuses and a gimicky flow that is already proving to not be working out as planned. Furloughees returning to AA combined with an overall shrinkage of about 40-50 airframes at AA over the next few years will mean they inevitably need less pilots to meet their staffing goals. That means less pilots flowing. I'm really starting to think that the flow was designed to get the top paid regional CAs to flow to mainline and that's it. After this year, I think it's anyone's guess what will happen with the flows.

I agree. And then the trapped guys are stuck with 12 year caps.

My gut tells me to go to envoy. They need pilots, we all know that. How hard is it to offer the airplane that we all want?

Which plane are you gonna choose when you flow to AA in 6 years?

Im an Airbus fan myself. The automation is incredible!

You make a very good case with this. I've actually said that Envoy will flow out the 824 and then you'll see management halting the flow stating they have to have the pilots to operate. Holding the pilots hostage out of critical necessity if you will. If ALPA goes as far as filing a lawsuit, which I seriously doubt, then Envoy management will be in court requesting an injunction due to the fact that the company would shut down if they continued to flow pilots out when no more are coming through the door.

That would be quite the vindication for you. After all, it'd be the only confirmation you ever get that leaving for allegiant was a better choice. :rolleyes:

Which is why he left. Time will tell who is right/wrong. But please, continue to argue over points unprovable. I need something to read when I'm bored.

I made the decision to leave after reviewing everything and coming to the conclusions I post here. If I am proven wrong or right, it doesn't matter. I live with the consequences of leaving and where I am now.

I do still stand by these predictions today. Take a look at what has happened since Skyvector posted the rosy picture in the November 2015 thread "New Envoy Information." Envoy cannot get new hires. New hires in sustained numbers of 35 per month or greater are necessary to keep the Ponzi scheme flow going.

AAG will not change until the last possible moment and the thing that will likely get candidates in the door are better pay and a better QOL. For now, Envoy offers neither in addition to only offering two bases now. Even the most ardent Envoy supporters here note that the company's treatment of the pilot group is abhorrent.

For those with their heads buried in the sand doing nothing except waiting for the flow to happen, it's not going to hurt to apply elsewhere or consider working for an LCC. Perhaps not Allegiant, but certainly Jetblue, Spirit or Virgin...if you can get in. Holding out just to work for American Airlines will likely only bring crushed expectations as the flow carrot moves a little further away each year.

Actions speak louder than words my friend

You are exactly correct. Your action, remaining at Envoy for the duration suggest you buy into the flow wholeheartedly and are awaiting your turn in line.

My action, leaving for another opportunity, suggests that I did not buy into the flow.

I think time will tell you made a good decision. That isn't to say that the flow isn't going to keep working. I just don't see how it is going to keep working in the numbers that management is projecting. No new hires will be at mainline in 5 to 6 years. 10-15 would be a more likely projection and by that point, so much will have changed that a flow shouldn't even matter to a new hire looking at regionals today. Flows are great if you are within 2 years of the projected flow times. Beyond that, you should still be trying to get out of a regional to anywhere better. This industry is too unstable to possibly say beyond reasonable doubt that you will flow if you have more than a couple years to wait.

I think it's safe to say that nothing has changed between today and 10 years ago. Airlines still sell the idea that you can be at mainline flying a 737 in 5 years is complete bull. They said it then and they are still saying it today. That's what really ****es me off about this business. It's primary recruiting is based on false hopes. Wake the F up AA!!!!

Sad, but true. You can't blame them though. It's still somewhat successful primarily because they continuously have a new audience who hasn't seen this show before and the MC's who do their best to convince the latest audience not to read the program footnotes compiled by critics who HAVE seen the show before. That works with many in the new audience too who essentially scream for the critics to mind their own business so they can see the show and judge for themselves with no interest in past performance reviews.

......and that folks, is how new audiences usually end up eating cake and then wonder why they end up puking in the isles.

Pilots.............they never learn. :cool:

still kinda disheartening to the incoming pilots like myself who want to make it to the majors but don't mind doing my time in the regionals, oh well I guess lol just gotta roll with it.

"Doing your time" is to be expected. Just don't believe everything you hear from those who have a motive to maximize your stay with them for their financial benefit instead of yours. Understand that this segment of the industry was built on the concept of unfulfilled promises.

That's definitely true. I only want to be with RJ's for the least amount of time possible. Really want UA, but I wouldn't mind DL or AA, imo lol

I think it is more like wake the eff up potential pilots! It's not going to happen though. This generation of pilots is so incensed by shiny jet syndrome that they'll give up seniority to get the shiniest new hotness on the block. If they can't see that far beyond their nose, and with all the morally corrupt company lackeys eschewing the BS claims of short movement to mainline times as if they were facts rather than anything but marketing ploys, how can we expect any change to happen? Nothing is changing. Flight schools are packed with these suckers and a new one is born every day.

I need a tetanus shot after seeing this...

I need a new job after looking at the June crj bid packet

1-800-TRUCKMASTERS




I had a friend that was an OTR trucker, was on the road 25 days out of the month. College roommate is a teacher, absolutely hates his job (new generation of parents & students). Another friend is a MD, tells me all the time he wished he did something else. He hates dealing with people & insurance companies.

No job is pefect, and every job includes some aspects they didn't tell you about in school. I find with the guys I fly with, the more life experience they have outside of aviation, the more they appreciate flying. The ones who were supported my Mommy and Daddy in college and regional flying is literally their first and only real job are the one's disgruntled and dissatisfied. But that kind of unrealistic expectation and entitlement starts long before flight school.

Do you really think that Truck Drivers can make $94,000 a year AND be home every weekend? I mean it's written on the back of the truck so it MUST be true!

Where did they find these, outside a frat house?

Exactly. Envoy management says you are going to upgrade in 2.5 years and flow in 5.5 so it must be true!

Being one of those life experience guys that holds a CDL, I agree wholeheartedly about the cry babies. But I never saw chairs like that in any terminal!

Sent from my NXA8QC116 using Tapatalk

In late May 2015 Captain Ric Wilson told the Envoy pilots that all prospective new hires are “projected to make Captain at Envoy within 2.5 years and projected to flow through to American within 6 years of date of hire.”

Shortly thereafter, our good friend Charlie Bucket was hired. How is he doing?

The 2.5/6-year projection shared by management and recruitment was a large contributing factor to his decision to come to Envoy. Charlie is a fantastic pilot that has been a model employee in his year of service to Envoy. Mr. Bucket is still on reserve, and might hold a line by the end of the year, approximately 18 months after being hired. Charlie has approximately 530 pilots ahead of him before he can upgrade, excluding any who bypass or resign. If we continue to upgrade at our current rate, and with reasonably expected attrition, Charlie Bucket will upgrade in November 2018 – approximately 3.5 years after date of hire.


Why would anyone come here. Charlie bucket will spend 2.1 yrs at best on reserve. Get a 1.4 yrs of line holder. Then another 3 years on reserve. So coming here you will do 5.1 yrs of reserve, then maybe flow at year 7 at best. We have horrible reserve rules. Whatever FAR says, that is what are reserve rules are. Our schedules are crappy, it's almost better to be on reserveand, as I said reserve sucks here.

Yes, poor Charlie Bucket is looking more now like just another of the numerous Charlie Brown's there who repeatedly run at the football Lucy keeps luring them towards. The encouraging news is that it seems more and more of them are starting to figure out they're being suckered. It's a start anyway...............

It is my understanding that the information provided by the union to the pilot group also included that the 3.5 year upgrade for First Officer Bucket was calculated on the original company math model that originally projected the 2.5/6 option. The union apparently indicated that with the lack of new hires, a 4.5 year upgrade for Mr. Bucket is the more likely scenario at present. Has the 2.5/6 just changed to a 4.5/8?

4.5 and undetermined.

Yes, based on the current hiring trend of a single newhire and overall performance, that is the projection. Undoubtedly, this estimate can move in either direction, and it will do so.

The union places the blame directly at management's feet. Poor schedules, incorrect pay, lower first year pay, contract abuses, and the catch-22 environment surrounding flow/upgrade/hiring that company has created are all major factors.

Now that is gross. If the country only knew how their regional airline pilots were treated....

Envoy offering 300% OT
 

They don't want to know so long as they can buy their $129 round trip ticket.

Hey if you want to fly 737s and 747s, why don't you just apply at charter company's flying them and then apply to aa or delta etc. Skip that *******ed up flow envoy has? I mean hell Xtra Airways, songbird, sky lease, Miami air etc are all hiring. I wouldn't personally go to the last 2 myself though. But like you guys have said, look what others have to say about the company's before you buy into their crap.

I find it funny about 6 months ago I was looking into leaving Silver to go work for Envoy but after what I have been reading I am really glad I passed that one up.

More than half of the guys flowing in June are coming off of the CRJ, so staffing will be even worse on that :(

Cdl holder here as well and those cry babies should work a day in a warehouse somewhere and then have something to complain about

And Somali and syrian refugees eating dirt and drinking dysentery ridden water think truck drivers are cry babies when they ***** about a livable wage in the warehouse or conditions in an air conditioned truck.

this aint somalia and syria etc;

Exactly... Piedmont, Commut Air and Air Wisconsin all offer tons of money for picking up. Nothing new here.

Piedmont is 300-400% based on their need. You talk to some guys there and hear that CA are making 18,000/month and FOs are easily bringing in 5,000/month.

AWAC is always 150% but apparently you can bargain with their schedulers and they give incentives like an ipad drawing. Seems like 100hrs of credit there is really easy to come by.

Commut Air guys have been making waaaaay more than you'd expect based on their hourly rate too.

Sure does do away with Endeavors $20,000 sham. Sure hope applicants over there don't hear what you can make elsewhere before any bonus. Guys should do their research on what they'll actually make at each of these places with things like 300% pay included.

Endeavor offers 150% on anything over 85 hrs