There are some really interesting thoughts in this thread. I agree we'll probably never know the real reasons for the 175s going away, but it is frustrating to not know why, especially after such a great effort by so many here to stand up that fleet.

I wanted to add one thing regarding UA making the decision to put in that 49% stake. What are the chances UA mgmt was concerned about certain regional airlines getting so large, with so much market share, that they'd have too much bargaining power? I'd be interested to hear the group's thoughts.

Be well all.

I will say your theory isn’t far fetched. In 2018, RPA wanted to purchase Compass. But TSA, was only willing to sell if RPA bought all 3 (GoJet, TSA, and Compass). They were closing in on a deal when RPAs shareholders (DL, UA, AA) pulled the plug. Rumor had it they did bc they didnt want a regional having that much power and it would take away several companies bidding against each other. I think they would prefer a company go out of business than merger.

Even if the truth does come out and it will - the white noise that has already been offered as possible explanations will drown out the actual story.

My confidence in our new CEO never got established. In hindsight, I will say that his failure to recognize the significance of the attrition due to the merger engineered by a competitor (Skywest) coupled with his failure to see Mesa out-maneuvering him with the next 20 175s has led us to where we are today.

Plenty has been written about the merger and attrition. He inherited that but he never showed an understanding of it until it was too late. We only got the new TA when we had already lost the 175s
As to the 175s, he apparently didn't see JO coming in and off-loading UALs financial burden by offering those next 20 175s instead of UAL having to finance them. I have to give JO credit for what he did. Pretty shrewd move on his part. Unfortunately, it led to what we have now and our CEO didn't see it coming.

^^^Exactly^^^

I have to wonder if JO can afford those planes now? I think not?

Ultimately it doesn't matter to us. Our 175s are already being transferred to Skywest. We will not be flying them at this point.

The planes have already been purchased and shipment starts in Sep.

XJT could not staff all 25 E175s. According to communications provided to UA in early February, the last 4 aircraft in the delivery could not be flown. Came up short.

I do believe however, that if UA had known the full extent of how this crisis would develop, they’d have just agreed to leaving them on the ramp at the time. Since that’s essentially where they ended up. I’m assuming that UAs motive was to keep all of them flying without any delay in utilization since the clock was turning on the manufacturer provided support.

Guaranteed OO agreed to fly them but only under the conditions that all 25 were transferred to their network. It was just.....good business.

That seems a bit odd since we had a ton of staffing on the 175 new FOs i talked to were barely flying. I know at some points we had to wait on go jet 700s to leave before we could run revenue flights on some of the 175s.

You do know that they don’t just walk into the Embraer lobby and slap a shoe box full of three hundred dollar bills on Karen’s desk saying “I’ll take 20 of these now Wrap it up!”. Right?

Little thing called “finance”. According to the NASDAQ in December. Mesa knew at the time that their cash flow could support payments. Just like everyone else right now, they can “pump the brakes”.

Highly unlikely that their projected cash flow will support the purchase.

This is funny bc you make bold statements about another airlines that has already informed their pilot group of some of the steps moving forward. Mesa’s 737 program that was supposed to start in March is now starting in June. And the shipment of E175s that were suppose to start in May now being received in Sep. Ian is currently still working on the program to move them from Brazil. And rumor has it that the classes that were released earlier this yr are set to come back sometime in June to restart training. (This one I cant confirm, yet)

You should be asking yourself what does Mesa know that XJT doesnt... But, keep waiting for that Cares Act as your company plans to downgrade its CAs back to FOs.

FOs are easy to staff. The limitations were probably qualified CAs.

Yeah yeah yeah. I think you may be surprised one day that......well you’ll see.

Just curious. How much do you think Mesa is bleeding (just like every other airline) each day?

Im not saying Mesa isn't hurting like everyone else. Of course they are. But we have all seen a rise in pax over the last week. Based on projections travel should be back up 60-70% by year end. At those numbers most regionals will survive (might be a little smaller, though). CEOs dont make decisions based on today. They look 6 months down the road.

You have to realize that those 20 Ejets are replacing the crj700 fleet in Dulles. Those planes are scheduled to be leased to GoJet and converted to 550s. If Mesa doesnt take those planes then they cant lease them to GoJet to turn a profit and GoJet cant meet contract obligations to United. Also when United made the deal with Mesa to purchase them instead of UA there was a capacity clause requiring them to be used extensively in return.

Im not saying XJT will go under bc I do think they serve a niche with the 50 seaters and will be taking business from Air Wisconsin in ORD as the 200s are phased out.

I do however feel XJT will be hurting if they cant convince their shareholders to give up equity and take a loan (roughly $40 million) from the government for the Cares Act. Problem is how do you justify that for a company that has no assets, flying an airframe that UA already said they want to remove, and was purchased for only $60 million? XJT will survive but I expect they wont get government aid and will be much smaller.

Mesa also flys for AA... XJT is only UA now.....

Bravo, I think it's hard for other airlines pilots to see that we are hurting but in a better position right now. We are considered the bottom of the barrel for whatever odd reason, but yet internally we are pushing forward with certainty, unlike other regionals who are supposed to be superior.
They don't get our emails indicating we are just fine, bruised but fine. I'm sure I'll get the hate speech: No degree, washout, or some other negative response that is not true because I chose Mesa. I looked at XJT and Endeavor both were higher paying jobs at the time, reserve was in my future at both companies till I died. I chose Mesa because I got a line immediately and the culture was awesome. XJT commute and Jumpseat on my flights all the time. They are always welcome here, I like them. We shoot the sheeeet and talk about how bad our companies are. If Mesa goes under and they are around I would hope they would have me. I know most of pilot group would welcome them as well.
I think we both will be here. I know we both will be different after this clears up.
​​​

i don’t know when you looked at xjt that was going to have you on eternal reserve? Must have been a long time ago. But you are right that guys talk junk about Mesa all day long, but have no problem jump seating on them when they need to get somewhere. Doesn’t make any sense.

So I don't usually post often, mostly read, but I have to put my two cents in on this. Mesa is not in a good position because of its CEO. Mesa is currently being sued for securities fraud. JO is a criminal who has already had major fines assessed against him for past trading indiscretions. Mesa's stock has plummeted from $12 per share, to $3 per share today, getting as low as $2.10 last week. JO is not legally allowed to own any stock, and was previously terminated from multiple brokerage firms for breaching ethical standards. He also lies and likes to say that he "saved" Continental Express, now ExpressJet, when in actuality he was fired in a huge display. There are many people that still work at XJT, that remember the childish show he put on in our training center as he was being escorted out of the building by Harris County Police. Mesa was publicly traded in 2009 as a way to garner capital, and then filed for bankruptcy in 2011 as a way to get out their contracts and subsequently because private again. Mesa also said 737's were coming in 2004. It NEVER happened. And lets not forget all of the other failed ventures... like the Hawaiian operation and the Chinese operation.... Since Mesa is a publicly traded company, they would have to put out a press release regarding a deal with 737's in order to satisfy the SEC. They have not done that. They have made the announcement for the 175's, but that's it... From a Mesa employee who was hired in 2003, "you can't believe anything Mesa says, until the plane is in the air with a mesa crew on board."

Also, XJT does not have to convince its shareholders of anything, because XJT not a publicly traded company and therefore, does not have shareholders. XJT is privately owned by ManaAir, which is a joint venture by KAir, and United Continental holdings. KAir is the majority owner and is also NOT publicly traded. That is the bare minimum to know about a company when attempting to speak on financial viability, and since you don't know that, you're opinions on the situation are no longer valid.

The reason Mesa gets a bad rap is because they have, historically, accepted subpar wages and work rules in order to obtain "shiny new jets". They have hired pilots without an interview and via text message. Their flight attendants, at one point not that long ago, didn't even have uniforms, and were instructed to wear anything navy blue. XJT locks its doors to its crew room in IAH because of the behavior of Mesa crews basically living in our crewroom, sleeping on the couches and lets not forget the caught on camera theft from the bag rooms and employee fridge. And no, commuters are not excited to jumpseat on mesa, but they do because sitting in the jumpseat is the safer option than sitting in the back... because they don't trust Mesa pilots.

Was this mean? Probably, but it was absolutely necessary. Any one that works for Mesa, is attributing the whip saw that XJT's "no vote" of 2014 was trying to stop. Flying for Mesa also tells me you did zero research on the industry before you started and went with the first airline to offer you a job. Is everyone that works for Mesa this way? No, I'm sure there are many fine people working for the company. Unfortunately, they are not the ones representing the company.

Thanks for listening

nice post, thanks

You are right about Mesa getting a bad rap for lower pay and rules, but the jumpseat remark is absolute garbage. Their pilots are just as safe as XJT. A friend of mine got his job at XJT with nothing more than a Skype interview. Several XJT LCA’s have told me that it wasn’t uncommon to have to give their new hires 100 hours of IOE because the company was basically taking who they could get, and even then, they couldn’t fill a class. I have been commuting for a long time and most of my flights were either XJT or Mesa. I have seen zero difference in the professionalism or ability between the crews. There is an attitude that I have noticed among a significant percentage of XJT pilots who think that they are a cut above Mesa or any other regional. You are not. The same goes for United pilots. They are not a cut above others either, but some in he group think that they are

While you first paragraph was thought out and informative the rest of your 2 cents is nothing more than opinionated garbage.

To address your first paragraph. I agree JO is a scumbag and I’ve said it on previous posts. But he is a scumbag that outmaneuvered your CEO for the 175 shipment. As far as the 737s are concerned, the reason it hasnt been announced is bc their are still is no contract between the pilot group and the company so the FAA had yet to approve it. Can’t announce something that isnt approved. But, the initial cadre group is suppose to start training in June and the company already owns 4 737s sitting up in CVG.

As far as the lawsuit, its an investment firm that claims JO withheld information during the IPO. The claim states that he withheld information regarding the maintenance of the crj900 fleet in DAL. If you knew anything about that situation you would know that when Mesa moved from CLT to DAL at AAs request, AA promised to cover a portion of the maintenance. They used Envoy to do our maintenance in DAL. Envoy not liking the fact Mesa moved into their house purposefully undermined Mesa abilities to operate. (it’s also a pretty tired fleet) There is also a lawsuit between Mesa and Envoy for their mechanics damaging several planes on purpose and a fuel truck slamming into 2 more. Now in saying all that, JO is a scumbag and probably withheld information. Lol. But even with that as of Nov of 2019 the stock was over $9 and in July 2019 was over $10. The only reason its down to $3 now is bc covid. The investment firm is just trying to save their own ass for stupid investing on their clients behalf.

Now to address the garbage portion of your statement. I actually know of a couple pilots at xjt that couldnt cut it at Mesa. 2 of which were let go for failure to complete the HIMS program. And there are several guys who couldnt cut it at xjt at mesa. So to make claims that either pilot group is superior in anyway is ridiculous. Nothing I have stated ever was designed to knock your pilot group.

As far as the B crewroom thing. I never heard of anyone doing the things your claiming. Not saying it didnt happen, but to judge an entire pilot group for one or two peoples actions is crazy. Every pilot group has bad apples. Just look at the RPA pilot that beat up his gf on the jet bridge. Are you going to go around and claim their whole Republic pilot group has anger problems.

Now when I was using the term shareholders I was referring to UA and ManaAir. That was my failure for not using the right terminology even though it seemed everyone else knew what I was talking about. But, I will try to be more specific for you next time. And what I said still stands. They would need to give up equity to the government and take out over a $40 million loan bc they cant offer stock warrants.

Your jumpseat comment was the dumbest thing Ive read. First off, you're not allowed in the jumpseat if there is a seat in the back its in violation of the GOM. For someone who claims to have been around as long as they have you seem to know very little. Secondly, Ive jumseated on xjt flights and most of the crews are pretty cool but I fail to see any difference in skill or professionalism that you claim.

My whole point on my previous statement was just an explanation on why Mesa is better positioned than XJT. And to make it simple for you its bc we actually got the Cares Act, we have assets, we fly better planes, currently have better bases bc covid areas, carry for 2 carriers instead of 1, and are cheaper for mainline to use. Things that people should take into consideration outside of pay when choosing a regional. Bc lets be honest there isnt that as much difference as you claim between any regional. Unless your a lifer, than I just feel sorry for you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Blah, bla, bla.....dude, it's still Mesa. Anyone who has been in the industry more than a week knows what that means!

Mesa has never been the best paying gig out there, but deciding to go there doesn’t mean that you are settling or that you are weak with no other options. Pre-covid19 their pay was about the same for flying the 175 as that at XJT for flying the 145, and they had quicker upgrades which meant more money. I remember being in the jumpseat having a 5 year XJT first talking about how a guy that he knew had gone to Mesa and upgraded in 2 years. He made the comment that he may be a captain, but he’s still at Mesa. When I mentioned that his friend was making $25-30/hr more, logging PIC, flying hard, and making himself much more marketable to a legacy, he didn’t have much of a response. Now even with the benefit of hindsight, people working for a company that exclusively operate a fleet that is on the chopping block continue to look down on a group that will most likely come out of this in much better shape. If your goal was to build a quality resume as fast as you can so that you would be competitive elsewhere, Mesa would have gotten you there faster than XJT. If Mesa recalls furloughed pilots and resumes hiring first, furloughed XJT pilots will be lined up around the block trying to get hired.

Mesa's pay is drastically lower. $4 per hour x 1000 = $4,000
$2500 x4 - $10,000

$14,000 per year less is a lot of money. As a new hire on the 175 at XJT I was having no problem crediting 110-120 hours per month with a little extra effort and some ROE pick ups. Work rules/hotels at XJT are better. As far as pilot skill, all is the same. I have flown with some of the most wonderful captains at XJT and a very small handful of real pieces of garbage. Nasty attitudes Either way Mesa has a great pilot group and their company has offered tremendous stability but the cost is pay. Upgrade times at XJT before this whole mess started had dropped to nada on the 145 and only a few years on the 175.

Classic. A ****ing contest over who is "better", Mesa or ExpessJet.🤣

LoL, you know talking ill about Mesa is sure to bring in my boy Melit right?

It triggers him, poor thing.

Dang. That escalated quickly. My original post was pointing out the fact that “purchased” and “placed an order through financing” are two different things. You can’t return a car you’ve driven off the lot without penalty. However, you can cancel an order that hasn’t even been paid for. Companies do it ALL time.

Somehow this turned into an insult towards MESA as a company. But hey, United and American are somehow funneling passengers to MESA jets exclusively and paying higher fees since there are more people on MESAs airplanes. Which is not how it works....but ok.

Sorry for slinging mud. I guess...

Not sure which one is better or not. After both are still regional airlines.

However in terms FFD flying for United Airlines, Mesa is definitely in a better position. They have something to fly if the 50 seaters get parked.

You honestly didnt sling mud. You stated you prospective on why Mesa might back out of the order. And then I said why they wouldnt. In no way did you insult the pilot group. Maybe the company, but thats fine. Everyone talks **** about Mesa. RPA guys are the worst. But, your boy Delag decided to insult an entire pilot group. Talking about how xjt pilots are more professional, better pilots, smarter, dont steal, blah blah blah.... You’re good..

My whole point was is that at Mesa the 175 order isnt going anywhere. Even though they could back out of the order at anytime. As of right now, the plan is still to take them on for the previously stated reasons. Which if anyone wants to go back and read the thread they can.

I used to poo poo these arguments saying FO pay is irrelevant. Where you want to look when choosing a regional is 3 year CA pay because everybody was upgrading relatively quickly. That is where the money was made, not at year 1 or 2 FO. Well, not anymore. People are going to be FOs for a long time again it looks like. FO pay is once again relevant when choosing a regional because that is what you will be making for your first 4 to 6 years.

How good is your position going forward if UAL takes back the 175s they own?

Hey man, UA management could take their toys and flying back at any moment. I don't disagree with this argument. I do understand that Mesa just signed an agreement with United for the next 8 years I believe. So a breach in contract would be pretty expensive to UA management. They could and might opt for this option I don't know. UA management sole purpose is to run a business and make money to be profitable do we agree here?
Now to what you posted that header says what: "Air Line Pilots Association, International" These group of people do what. They are the Union that represents a wonderful pilot group that work under UA management. Their purpose; to negotiate wages, work rules, and job protections. They have NO SAY in where aircraft go when it comes to FFD companies. They are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing trying to protect their work group. I am onboard with that.
Now back to UA management. It will cost a lot of money to train and pay UA mainline pilots to fly the beloved E-175 plus it will cost them a fortune to breach the contracts with their respected sharecode partners. Now it could happen, who knows. If you were a business man. What would you do? Work with the Union and try to get jobs back to your employees knowing it will cost you big time, OR keep the cheap labor around that represents your brand and produces the desired outcome which is make money and be profitable. I expect their union to come up with all types of ideas that's what they are paid to do. I look at the endgame. UA management runs this show and my job, your job and the beloved union's job rest in UA managements hands.
My position as of right now? I'm betting on management saving money and as much as no mainliner wants to hear this. It's always about profits in the endgame not about whose jobs gets saved or who flies what. UA management does not care who flies what. They care about money, profits, shareholders, ect. They don't care who flies the 175 with their logo on the side. The unions want you to think that UA management cares, they don't. Those are union deceptions, mine included.

Did you invent a time machine?

Its bleeding.

Until January.

exactly. Any hope of regional jets going back to mainline is just a fantasy. That ship sailed long ago. But kudos to the union for trying, as a previous poster said, that’s their job.

Highly doubtful. AA owns 20% stock in Mesa. It would cost them Millions to walk away.

At the current market cap, that would be $30.27 million roughly.

Ha! The legacy carriers are losing about $100 million per day. So that is about 7 hours worth of losses right now.

Cutting expenses and losing a capital investment are two different things. The stock is tied to the contract. And by your logic UA should dismantle xjt. Not saying they should but that is your logic in your statement.

Now whats being said in Mesa management is that AA is renewing the contract but Mesa can expect a fleet reduction of 3-5 planes.