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Old 07-16-2017, 06:22 AM   #31
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Is profit sharing a viable option in future negotiations? I know it's not necessarily linked to the retirement discussion, but would open up another avenue.

I think a hybrid model that we currently have mitigates risk. Wouldn't a course of action with a higher Pk of success such as an increase of the B Fund with cash over cap be a better approach than using our negotiating energy to try and muscle out an increase in the A Plan, which they have made crystal clear they are not willing to budge on? Just thinking out loud here.

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Old 07-17-2017, 10:34 AM   #32
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Oh look, a squirrel.

In no particular order.

It's certainly possible that my negotiation team folded like Biff when Mgt said no friggin way are we willing to entertain the idea of improving our A plan (now Biff don't con me)

But I think it went more like this
NC-We want to improve the A plan. Mgt-No. not willing to discuss it. NC-We want to improve the A plan. Mgt-No. not willing to discuss it. NC-We want to improve the A plan. Mgt-No. Not willing to discuss it.

NC-huddle up boys, starting to get the idea that Mgt's not willing to improve the A plan. What do you think? Keep asking? Or try and sell them on paying us for our sick leave? Maybe we can work wring some $$ out in exchange for that advance retirement notice thing they want (Absolutely no insider knowledge on my part, purely a hypothetical)

FedEx can, and I expect will be able to in the future, afford to improve the A plan. But there's a reason that Warren Buffet recommended against creating a pension plan in the 70s, and a reason Fortune 500 companies have been kiboshing pensions for a couple decades now.

Think back to summer of 2015, FedEx was parking jets and having service failures almost nightly due to insufficient crewmembers...and even with that pressure, Mgt wasn't willing to adjust our earnings cap. Not even a smidgen of an offer came across the table. Not even an we'll tie it to the IRS cap. Or index it for inflation starting as of some future date.

Pension funds. In order for a Union to Steal Pension funds the Union needs to be in control of said money. Anyone think FedEx is willing to concede Control?

Fortune 500 companies have a Love\Hate relationship with DB pension plans. Love them because they retain the $$ and can use earnings on those funds to artificially prop up their returns. Hate them because if they don't kick in enough $$ or generate enough $$ then the Feds will be calling and requiring them to pony up some of their cashflow thanks to ERISA laws passed, and improved on over the years to protect Us-the workers.

One of the big drivers of our pax brethren's pension failures was unrealistic return assumptions by Mgt---hey, if we keep getting this 15% return on our pension plan we don't have to add any money. We can use that money to go mano-a-mano with Southwest only we'll charge 10$ less than their fares. (well, until they give up on expanding to that airport). And those unrealistic returns didn't seem so unrealistic during the dot.com era. Just by JDSU, my money's doubled. No, buy the QQQ. Buy a whole lot of stocks those old Fuddy Duddies like Warren Buffet avoided because they just couldn't understand how they'd make $$. Forget that, I'm putting all my money on AOL. Buy GOOGLE, that's just a search engine. What idiot would want to buy that? Apple, that's so old school they fired their founder. Apple's a sucker's bet.

And just after everything collapsed...9-11. What an economic one two punch.

And everything's on here so far is Internet speculation.
So the simple question for the future is-stick with our current A plan or at least entertain the possibility of change.

Our A plan future value is simple math. And I wouldn't be too surprised to extrapolate hourly raises into the future and find that a 777 FO is going to be able to meet the earnings cap, all too soon.

Maybe this hybrid option, well, creates opportunities for something better. Maybe the FDA method UPS has creates opportunities for something better,

Don't know. But I'm at least willing to listen, and read, and pontificate from time to time on the internet about what I think
Wow! We got 50% (at best) for our sick leave. What a great deal! How about getting 100% of it? We've always had a way to get that (think about it). This could be a big savings for Fedex, not a cost.

Don't you think Fedex gains when they are given advance notice of retirement? They can plan staffing (saves them $$$) which helps keep them from having too many pilots on the payroll. People can still give a days notice, but they know that most won't throw away 40k.

I guess Fedex should just draw a line in the sand on all contract items. Hey, if they don't want to talk about it, we know they are serious and should move on.

People think we "won" because we don't have PBS and kept our retirement. PBS was a smokescreen and a large group believed them. Those articles on Vips. Really? They didn't even try to convince us. When we are focused on keeping things in our contract (in a very good negotiating environment), you really know we've been beaten.

I would have preferred an update from the NC that alluded to problems negotiating retirement. I realize they can't give out specifics, but just enough information to let us know that the company wasn't interested working with us. This could have happened right at peak, and hopefully we could have put some pressure on the company. I know some guys would have flown everyday, but as short as we were, they'd notice.

Anyway, it's over and I was on the losing side of it. Such is life. But, I have to say I have huge trust issues with our union. I'm not sure I trust them renegotiate retirement at this time.
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Old 07-17-2017, 11:12 AM   #33
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But, I have to say I have huge trust issues with our union. I'm not sure I trust them renegotiate retirement at this time.
Ditto. We get out smarted and out lawyered time and time again. We also have negotiators who typically start on the SIG, get used to hearing this, that or the other thing is too hard and regularly accommodating the company's "no" month after month. They bring this Stockholm syndrome to the negotiating table and here we are.

If the company is looking for ways to reduce or alleviate their pension funding responsibilities with regards to our A-plan and they succeed, we will lose. It's that simple.

We can't even enforce our current contract. There are provisions that are still not implemented 21 months after signing. Anyone had vacation with a secondary recently? We're supposed to be able to choose how many vacation hours we're paid for in our secondary. Still not implemented. Hmm....looking at the implementation schedule, it says the DEADLINES for all 4 phases are past. Aren't "deadlines" kind of inflexible by definition? These particular items are listed as "On track". Really? How accommodating of us. I'm sure it's "programming difficulties". Computer stuff is hard.

So... if I show 4 hours late for my next trip, can I just claim that I'm "on track" because commuting is hard?.......... didn't think so.

We can't enforce what we've already agreed to with the company. We balk constantly on holding their feet to the fire and winning (or even initiating) grievances. But somehow we think we're going to improve our retirement outside of section 6 negotiations when the company's goal appears to be relieving themselves of funding what we already have in place. Oh yeah.... I'm sure this is going to work out perfectly.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:38 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post

Ditto. We get out smarted and out lawyered time and time again. We also have negotiators who typically start on the SIG, get used to hearing this, that or the other thing is too hard and regularly accommodating the company's "no" month after month. They bring this Stockholm syndrome to the negotiating table and here we are.

If the company is looking for ways to reduce or alleviate their pension funding responsibilities with regards to our A-plan and they succeed, we will lose. It's that simple.

We can't even enforce our current contract. There are provisions that are still not implemented 21 months after signing. Anyone had vacation with a secondary recently? We're supposed to be able to choose how many vacation hours we're paid for in our secondary. Still not implemented. Hmm....looking at the implementation schedule, it says the DEADLINES for all 4 phases are past. Aren't "deadlines" kind of inflexible by definition? These particular items are listed as "On track". Really? How accommodating of us. I'm sure it's "programming difficulties". Computer stuff is hard.

So... if I show 4 hours late for my next trip, can I just claim that I'm "on track" because commuting is hard?.......... didn't think so.

We can't enforce what we've already agreed to with the company. We balk constantly on holding their feet to the fire and winning (or even initiating) grievances. But somehow we think we're going to improve our retirement outside of section 6 negotiations when the company's goal appears to be relieving themselves of funding what we already have in place. Oh yeah.... I'm sure this is going to work out perfectly.

AMEN to every. single. word.






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Old 07-17-2017, 01:56 PM   #35
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AMEN to every. single. word.






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Can get a round of applause
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:06 PM   #36
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We also have negotiators who typically start on the SIG, get used to hearing this, that or the other thing is too hard and regularly accommodating the company's "no" month after month. They bring this Stockholm syndrome to the negotiating table and here we are.

Hey Adlerdriver, I VOLUNTEERED for 4 years on the PSIT for the MD. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about when it comes to the SIG. But then again it's easy to talk crap about people who busts their ass for your benefit without any knowledge of what goes on in that room. Crap like this is why we always get our ass handed to us. We have a very dysfunctional and selfish pilot group. I've been here for 22 years and unfortunately I don't see it changing before I retire.
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:23 PM   #37
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Today's recommended reading is page 515 of our CBA
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:34 PM   #38
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... I VOLUNTEERED for 4 years on the PSIT for the MD. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about when it comes to the SIG. But then again it's easy to talk crap about people who busts their ass for your benefit without any knowledge of what goes on in that room.

Perhaps you could enlighten us by describing what goes on during build week. What was your schedule like? What time did you begin each day, and what time did you end? Where did you physically work? How much time was on ALPA property, and how much on FedEx property? Where did you eat? Who paid your trip removal? Who paid for your meals? Where did commuters stay? Who paid?

Were you ever able to draw a line in the sand on any issue to the point of delaying the publishing of a bid period package, or was the deadline always the deadline? Were you ever able to convince The Company to change a pairing to a less onerous schedule if it was going to cost The Company more money, or were the only solutions acceptable those which cost the same or less? How many disputed pairing disputes were decided by the final arbitrator in our favor?
Apart from the scheduling subject matter expertise, what experience did you gain on the PSIT which you believe would make you a better CBA negotiator?

If the goings on of the PSIT are so secretive that nobody has a clue what goes on there, isn't that a problem? Well, provide the solution. Tell us all about it.






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Old 07-17-2017, 07:46 PM   #39
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Hey Adlerdriver, I VOLUNTEERED for 4 years on the PSIT for the MD. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about when it comes to the SIG. But then again it's easy to talk crap about people who busts their ass for your benefit without any knowledge of what goes on in that room. Crap like this is why we always get our ass handed to us. We have a very dysfunctional and selfish pilot group. I've been here for 22 years and unfortunately I don't see it changing before I retire.
Thanks for volunteering, trashhauler. I do personally appreciate that. My goal in my previous post was not to denigrate the efforts of the SIG and if I came across that way, I apologize to you and the other members, past and present.

I was being critical of those specific NC members who brought us this POS who happened to be prior SIG members and I don't apologize for that. You're right, I have no knowledge of what goes on in that room, but that's not really germane to my point. Having a close working relationship (as well as at least one personal relationship) over years and years with the very same people who you end up across the table from during contract negotiations is the issue. It's my opinion that some of the NC member's previous SIG work which I think I can safely assume requires compromise and in some situations acceptance of absolutes laid out by the company may not have been the best training ground for our NC.

On another SIG note - let's just say that I was interested in getting inside that room, the happenings within I readily admit I have no clue about. If I volunteered next week, how long would it take before I was allowed behind the green door, so to speak? Is that even possible for an average unknown person who might want to do that work? From what I understand, it takes some serious juice to go from scrubbing pairings to getting inside that room. Is such a well protected and exclusive fiefdom a healthy thing to have? Is it the best place to draw NC members from? Maybe you can offer your opinions because I can only go on what I've gleaned from conversation with other prior SIG folks.

I realize you were a bit offended, but are you really insinuating that my criticism of our NC and MEC is why we seem to consistently fail with contract language and enforcement? There are many, many reasons why that happens and I don't begin to claim that I could lay out a cogent explanation of them all. I certainly have my theories but they're best reserved for several hours in a bar with plenty of whisky. However, I'm pretty sure my criticism isn't one of them. Results speak for themselves and they are highly deserving of every bit of criticism they receive. Dysfunction and selfishness? Yup, they're a big problem, I couldn't agree more. There are a large number of our pilots that simply don't "get it" or don't care to. Self-regulating each other in the legalistic and punitive culture that's been built here is impossible. You're right, I don't see all that changing any time soon.

I can say that I've been at an airline that had their collective ALPA stuff squared away (albeit in a very different environment that we face now in many respects). As a new union member just off probation, I watched as the leadership lead, the pilots did what was required as a group (ya know, that unity thing?) and backed by that, the NC aggressively and WITHOUT COMPROMISE got us one of the best contracts the industry had seen to that point. The negotiating environment was fertile and in our favor during that period and they made the best of it. Much like our negotiating environment was in 2015 leading into our eventual contract, however, as we all know the results were significantly different.

So, again, my apologies. If we cross paths on the 777 and we can figure out who we are, I'd gladly buy you a beer or three and solve the world's problems further.

Last edited by Adlerdriver; 07-17-2017 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:48 PM   #40
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Is there a like button somewhere Tony?
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