Fedex Pilots proposed retirement plan
07-23-2017, 10:59 AM
#81
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
I'm not at FedEx and wouldn't tell you how to play in your sandbox.
However, seems to me there is a risk - a YUGE risk - to terminating the defined benefit plan for newhires in an effort to create a better defined benefit for people already on property.
Doing so creates not only a "B-scale" at a highly profitable corporation, but opens a fracture point in pilot group unity pitting junior against senior. Sure, that may not exert itself during a TA vote or even the next CBA, but somewhere down the road when those "B-scale retirement" pilots become 50%+1 of the group, what will they be willing to sacrifice at your expense in order to benefit them?
However, seems to me there is a risk - a YUGE risk - to terminating the defined benefit plan for newhires in an effort to create a better defined benefit for people already on property.
Doing so creates not only a "B-scale" at a highly profitable corporation, but opens a fracture point in pilot group unity pitting junior against senior. Sure, that may not exert itself during a TA vote or even the next CBA, but somewhere down the road when those "B-scale retirement" pilots become 50%+1 of the group, what will they be willing to sacrifice at your expense in order to benefit them?
I spoke to a group of new hires, and every one said they'd prefer an enhanced B plan. To be honest, no one got a pencil out and calculated retirement values, or even had a good idea what the B fund percentage would be. Most liked the idea of having the money in their account.
I'd just say I think it's worth looking at.
07-23-2017, 11:19 AM
#82
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
I'm not at FedEx and wouldn't tell you how to play in your sandbox.
However, seems to me there is a risk - a YUGE risk - to terminating the defined benefit plan for newhires in an effort to create a better defined benefit for people already on property.
Doing so creates not only a "B-scale" at a highly profitable corporation, but opens a fracture point in pilot group unity pitting junior against senior. Sure, that may not exert itself during a TA vote or even the next CBA, but somewhere down the road when those "B-scale retirement" pilots become 50%+1 of the group, what will they be willing to sacrifice at your expense in order to benefit them?
.
07-23-2017, 12:09 PM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 936
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
I'm not at FedEx and wouldn't tell you how to play in your sandbox.
However, seems to me there is a risk - a YUGE risk - to terminating the defined benefit plan for newhires in an effort to create a better defined benefit for people already on property.
Doing so creates not only a "B-scale" at a highly profitable corporation, but opens a fracture point in pilot group unity pitting junior against senior. Sure, that may not exert itself during a TA vote or even the next CBA, but somewhere down the road when those "B-scale retirement" pilots become 50%+1 of the group, what will they be willing to sacrifice at your expense in order to benefit them?
However, seems to me there is a risk - a YUGE risk - to terminating the defined benefit plan for newhires in an effort to create a better defined benefit for people already on property.
Doing so creates not only a "B-scale" at a highly profitable corporation, but opens a fracture point in pilot group unity pitting junior against senior. Sure, that may not exert itself during a TA vote or even the next CBA, but somewhere down the road when those "B-scale retirement" pilots become 50%+1 of the group, what will they be willing to sacrifice at your expense in order to benefit them?
07-23-2017, 02:45 PM
#84
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 597
I have also been flying with a bunch of new hires and when we have discussed it they are in favor of a large b fund only. So I ask them if they know the current replacement value of the A plan and how much a new enhanced b fund needs to be to replace our current A plan and soon to be 9%B Fund. None of them had a clue. None knew about the federal caps on the BFund either. Then they said cash over cap. Great how about the taxes on the cash over cap, 35% on all but first year pay.
There is a reason it is taking one of the top firms close to a year to figure a better plan. Hard to replace what we have. The company does not want to increase A Plan due to high up front money. Fine increase our B fund another 5% which does not require such a large upfront cost. Gives us best of both worlds.
Just hope that if it comes to a vote everyone does their homework and runs the numbers instead of just crying about the A plan losing money over time. How did the last market drop treat your invested money? Probably a lot worse than a few percent a year.
There is a reason it is taking one of the top firms close to a year to figure a better plan. Hard to replace what we have. The company does not want to increase A Plan due to high up front money. Fine increase our B fund another 5% which does not require such a large upfront cost. Gives us best of both worlds.
Just hope that if it comes to a vote everyone does their homework and runs the numbers instead of just crying about the A plan losing money over time. How did the last market drop treat your invested money? Probably a lot worse than a few percent a year.
Originally Posted by golfandfly
I agree with the effect of a two tiered system. But, in the end, which one will be the better plan? In an attempt to help new hires, did we really do that? Again, what is the future value of a $130k (maximum) to a new hire? It certainly depends on age, but for a 30 year old new hire, what will it be worth in 30-35 years? We can only use historical inflation numbers, but how accurate will it be? With a national $20 trillion dollar deficit and rapid growing, could we see higher than normal inflation? Obviously you'd need a crystal ball to know for sure. Will Fedex be here 30-35 years from now? The company is only 40 years old now, so we're almost doubling its life. Will we go bankrupt in this period? I, for one, have lost an airline pension already. While things look rosy now, will they in the long term?
I spoke to a group of new hires, and every one said they'd prefer an enhanced B plan. To be honest, no one got a pencil out and calculated retirement values, or even had a good idea what the B fund percentage would be. Most liked the idea of having the money in their account.
I'd just say I think it's worth looking at.
I spoke to a group of new hires, and every one said they'd prefer an enhanced B plan. To be honest, no one got a pencil out and calculated retirement values, or even had a good idea what the B fund percentage would be. Most liked the idea of having the money in their account.
I'd just say I think it's worth looking at.
07-23-2017, 03:00 PM
#85
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 34
I believe that the company could easily improve our A plan with minimal effort. They simply retain current A plan amounts in the "qualified plan" and boost the cap by contributing to a "non-qualified plan." Certainly there is some risk and not all legal protections are available but it is better than we got in the last contract.
I think this is what they do for executives, so FedEx knows how to easily improve our A plan with limited costs but tells our NC that they can't afford it.
I think this is what they do for executives, so FedEx knows how to easily improve our A plan with limited costs but tells our NC that they can't afford it.
07-23-2017, 07:54 PM
#86
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Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by golfandfly
I agree with the effect of a two tiered system. But, in the end, which one will be the better plan? In an attempt to help new hires, did we really do that? Again, what is the future value of a $130k (maximum) to a new hire? It certainly depends on age, but for a 30 year old new hire, what will it be worth in 30-35 years? We can only use historical inflation numbers, but how accurate will it be? With a national $20 trillion dollar deficit and rapid growing, could we see higher than normal inflation? Obviously you'd need a crystal ball to know for sure. Will Fedex be here 30-35 years from now? The company is only 40 years old now, so we're almost doubling its life. Will we go bankrupt in this period? I, for one, have lost an airline pension already. While things look rosy now, will they in the long term?
I spoke to a group of new hires, and every one said they'd prefer an enhanced B plan. To be honest, no one got a pencil out and calculated retirement values, or even had a good idea what the B fund percentage would be. Most liked the idea of having the money in their account.
I'd just say I think it's worth looking at.
I spoke to a group of new hires, and every one said they'd prefer an enhanced B plan. To be honest, no one got a pencil out and calculated retirement values, or even had a good idea what the B fund percentage would be. Most liked the idea of having the money in their account.
I'd just say I think it's worth looking at.
Really? What were these new hires background? Do they already have a pension plan from prior employment? How educated were they on the current FedEx pension plan? Did they know they have the best of both world? A/B plan.
Do you guys really think your A plan is only worth an additional 5% or 10% B plan? SMFH
07-23-2017, 08:00 PM
#87
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Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by golfandfly
I agree with Tony. Why is it impossible to improve our A plan? Because the company doesn't want to? Next time they should draw their line in the sand on a lot more things. It seems to work well for them.
I don't accept it. UPS somehow managed an A fund bump? I'm sure they didn't want to improve it either.
Leverage. We have it. We all know what it is. It's eliminating the A fund for new hires. That'll get their attention. Do we want to go this route? I can't tell you the answer, but I agreed,at the time, with the MEC not to split up retirement plans. Of course, this was also predicated on a bump in our A fund. It was a cornerstone item as I recall. Now, with a possibility that the A fund could be capped at $130k, did we do them a favor? What will $130k (less survivor benefits) be in 30-35 years? What's the chance of bankruptcy or higher than expected inflation in 30 years? Fedex is strong now, but so were a lot of other companies 30 years ago. To be fair, a market based B fund could also be hit hard by a falling market.
For the guy that said people that have been here for less than 15 years would probably want a higher B fund in lieu of their A fund is out to lunch. Maybe 5 years or less.
I'd consider allowing the company to discontinue the A fund for new hires, but they would have to offer them a competitive cash over cap B fund. They'd also have to improve retirement for EVERY pilot on the seniority list.
I don't accept it. UPS somehow managed an A fund bump? I'm sure they didn't want to improve it either.
Leverage. We have it. We all know what it is. It's eliminating the A fund for new hires. That'll get their attention. Do we want to go this route? I can't tell you the answer, but I agreed,at the time, with the MEC not to split up retirement plans. Of course, this was also predicated on a bump in our A fund. It was a cornerstone item as I recall. Now, with a possibility that the A fund could be capped at $130k, did we do them a favor? What will $130k (less survivor benefits) be in 30-35 years? What's the chance of bankruptcy or higher than expected inflation in 30 years? Fedex is strong now, but so were a lot of other companies 30 years ago. To be fair, a market based B fund could also be hit hard by a falling market.
For the guy that said people that have been here for less than 15 years would probably want a higher B fund in lieu of their A fund is out to lunch. Maybe 5 years or less.
I'd consider allowing the company to discontinue the A fund for new hires, but they would have to offer them a competitive cash over cap B fund. They'd also have to improve retirement for EVERY pilot on the seniority list.
You selfish POS, you would sell out the junior guy to give yourself a bump? That's the reason this industry is the way it is. Dog it Dog world, you should be ashame of yourself for even thinking that
07-23-2017, 08:10 PM
#88
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by StarClipper
You selfish POS, you would sell out the junior guy to give yourself a bump? That's the reason this industry is the way it is. Dog it Dog world, you should be ashame of yourself for even thinking that
I've lost a pension already. Have you? What's it worth to me? Jack squat. If it was in a B fund, at least I'd have something to show for it.
Again, are we doing them a favor keeping them on the current plan? Depends on who you ask. I've had many younger newhires say they'd prefer money in their name. Again, what's 130k (assuming no survivor benefit) gonna be worth in 2050? Is Fedex going to be around? Lots of unknowns.
So before you start calling me selfish, maybe you should try and listen for once you ignorant POS. What's best for you isn't what's best for everyone else. I never once said that I'd sell out junior pilots for a small bump in my pay. Maybe, just maybe, we did just that when we didn't even explore other retirement proposals.
What an f'ing retard you are...
07-23-2017, 08:16 PM
#89
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Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by golfandfly
See, there's always an ass around here. And today it's you. If you had listened, I simply said I'd listen to a proposal.
I've lost a pension already. Have you? What's it worth to me? Jack squat. If it was in a B fund, at least I'd have something to show for it.
Again, are we doing them a favor keeping them on the current plan? Depends on who you ask. I've had many younger newhires say they'd prefer money in their name. Again, what's 130k (assuming no survivor benefit) gonna be worth in 2050? Is Fedex going to be around? Lots of unknowns.
So before you start calling me selfish, maybe you should try and listen for once you ignorant POS. What's best for you isn't what's best for everyone else. I never once said that I'd sell out junior pilots for a small bump in my pay. Maybe, just maybe, we did just that when we didn't even explore other retirement proposals.
What an f'ing retard you are...
I've lost a pension already. Have you? What's it worth to me? Jack squat. If it was in a B fund, at least I'd have something to show for it.
Again, are we doing them a favor keeping them on the current plan? Depends on who you ask. I've had many younger newhires say they'd prefer money in their name. Again, what's 130k (assuming no survivor benefit) gonna be worth in 2050? Is Fedex going to be around? Lots of unknowns.
So before you start calling me selfish, maybe you should try and listen for once you ignorant POS. What's best for you isn't what's best for everyone else. I never once said that I'd sell out junior pilots for a small bump in my pay. Maybe, just maybe, we did just that when we didn't even explore other retirement proposals.
What an f'ing retard you are...
07-24-2017, 01:30 AM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 936
Originally Posted by StarClipper
No you said "I'd consider allowing the company to discontinue the A fund for new hires, but they would have to offer them a competitive cash over cap B fund. They'd also have to improve retirement for EVERY pilot on the seniority list." There should be no consideration when comes to that, other than improving it. And yes I was wrong for calling you POS but I still think you were being selfish.
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