|
Overage/Sub/OTP FCIF
In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, an FCIF from 1999 was re-issued today clarifying the three options available if your current trip is extended, creating a conflict with a subsequent trip. One can lose out on some serious dollars if they make the wrong choice depending on the situation. But I'm not trying to help with what you decide, I'm posting to talk about WHEN you make your choice.
In two different paragraphs, the FCIF encourages pilots who are choosing option 1 (drop the trip in conflict to receive the full overage on the extended trip) to make that election "as soon as possible". However, the FCIF clearly states the deadline for that decision is completion of the revised trip that was extended - i.e. 30 minutes after block in. I strongly suggest anyone considering option 1 wait until they have blocked in before making that choice. The ALPA calendar used to make the same suggestion - choose ASAP and I followed it. I elected to drop the trip in conflict because the overage paid significantly more than the substitution pay for my next trip. After calling crew scheduling and choosing option 1, while I was still on the revised trip, it was revised again. The new revision basically returning it to its original version and footprint. Not only did I no longer have the overage from my revision, I no longer had my next trip and was ineligible for SUB as well since I had dropped it. Of course the schedulers want you to make your choice between option 1 and 2 ASAP because that makes their job easier. I offer my cautionary tale as one reason to take your time and make the choice after your trip. I also suggest forwarding that FCIF to your personal email for future reference. In my opinion, it does a better job than the current ALPA calendar in clarifying your options and is certainly easier than flipping back and forth between sections 4 and 25 of the contract. Also, some of the details like the 30 minute after block-in deadline are not specifically delineated in the contract. The ALPA calendar is not completely clear on this situation either and appears to only offer the 30-minute post-block in deadline to a reserve pilot. |
Thanks Adler, great post.
|
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2802589)
In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, an FCIF from 1999 was re-issued today clarifying the three options available if your current trip is extended, creating a conflict with a subsequent trip. One can lose out on some serious dollars if they make the wrong choice depending on the situation. But I'm not trying to help with what you decide, I'm posting to talk about WHEN you make your choice.
In two different paragraphs, the FCIF encourages pilots who are choosing option 1 (drop the trip in conflict to receive the full overage on the extended trip) to make that election "as soon as possible". However, the FCIF clearly states the deadline for that decision is completion of the revised trip that was extended - i.e. 30 minutes after block in. I strongly suggest anyone considering option 1 wait until they have blocked in before making that choice. The ALPA calendar used to make the same suggestion - choose ASAP and I followed it. I elected to drop the trip in conflict because the overage paid significantly more than the substitution pay for my next trip. After calling crew scheduling and choosing option 1, while I was still on the revised trip, it was revised again. The new revision basically returning it to its original version and footprint. Not only did I no longer have the overage from my revision, I no longer had my next trip and was ineligible for SUB as well since I had dropped it. Of course the schedulers want you to make your choice between option 1 and 2 ASAP because that makes their job easier. I offer my cautionary tale as one reason to take your time and make the choice after your trip. I also suggest forwarding that FCIF to your personal email for future reference. In my opinion, it does a better job than the current ALPA calendar in clarifying your options and is certainly easier than flipping back and forth between sections 4 and 25 of the contract. Also, some of the details like the 30 minute after block-in deadline are not specifically delineated in the contract. The ALPA calendar is not completely clear on this situation either and appears to only offer the 30-minute post-block in deadline to a reserve pilot. |
Yes.. I was wondering why this was posted...
Something must have happened. |
Great advice. Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by harvick4
(Post 2802634)
Why would anyone drop their trip straight up instead of electing OTP? Maybe I'm missing something.
|
Originally Posted by harvick4
(Post 2802634)
Why would anyone drop their trip straight up instead of electing OTP? Maybe I'm missing something.
In my case, I was done flying for the month when I finished the extended trip, so no OTP then. I was going to training for the following ~3 months and wasn’t going to be able to use OTP. If that wasn’t the best choice, educate me, I’m all ears. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by pinseeker
(Post 2802649)
Because, if you drop the trip, you get paid 150% for the first 12 hours of extra pay and 200% for any hours after that. If you elect substitution, you get 100% pay for all hours that the original trip extends into the next trip(s). It all depends on how long the original trip gets extended, hence the suggestion to wait until you block in to make the final decision so you aren't leaving money on the table.
Again, why would you just drop your trip? Only reason is you don't want the negative OTP hours 3 months later. |
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2802656)
I realize OTP will probably be many pilot’s choice in this scenario, but I didn’t want to offer advice about what to choose. There are enough nuances and situation specific variables that I didn’t feel qualified to offer definitive advice one way or the other. If someone else has the capability feel free.
In my case, I was done flying for the month when I finished the extended trip, so no OTP then. I was going to training for the following ~3 months and wasn’t going to be able to use OTP. If that wasn’t the best choice, educate me, I’m all ears. Thanks. If you were not going to be able to pick up any flying in the next 3 months then it's a wash. But if you were going to training for say upgrade. You could have selected OTP, for X hours. And if you finished upgrade in less then 3 months used those X OTP hours at your new Capt rate at 125%. 3 months after selecting OTP, they would deduct X hours at your FO rate. If that is too confusing, thank ALPA. |
Originally Posted by harvick4
(Post 2802697)
You were done for the month so no OTP? I don't understand that part.
Originally Posted by harvick4
(Post 2802697)
If you were not going to be able to pick up any flying in the next 3 months then it's a wash.
Just for OTP education, is it correct to say that you get pay protected for the trip that gets dropped at 100%. Then, when you use your OTP hours at some point in the future, you technically earn the extra 25% resulting in the advertised 125% pay? I’ve never been clear on how the OTP pay really happens. |
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2802723)
Just for OTP education, is it correct to say that you get pay protected for the trip that gets dropped at 100%. Then, when you use your OTP hours at some point in the future, you technically earn the extra 25% resulting in the advertised 125% pay? I’ve never been clear on how the OTP pay really happens.
When you pickup a trip via OTP, you get paid for it the following month just as if it was a makeup trip, except at 125%. The pay which you received for the "pay protected" trip gets deducted the third bid month (if I remember correctly) after the trip occurred whether you use your OTP hours or not. You can actually see it deducted in your Pay Summary for that month after you make your selection. One strategy to counter this and keep your pay somewhat normal is to makeup/use your OTP hours the previous month so you have a net gain of the 25% difference the month the deduct the money. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Let’s say you are doing a string of day hub turn. You are in Atl waiting for the night shift to make it in. Whoops, equipment change, your pairing revised to go home tomorrow. When you land you have 30 minutes to elect overage instead of Sub. Your pay will be 3 hours more than the captains who didn’t believe you.
|
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2802723)
I meant that I had already worked as much as I wanted to work and did not have the scheduling flexibility to use the OTP in the current month.
Yes, this is how I interpreted the situation, so it didn’t seem like OTP would benefit me. Just for OTP education, is it correct to say that you get pay protected for the trip that gets dropped at 100%. Then, when you use your OTP hours at some point in the future, you technically earn the extra 25% resulting in the advertised 125% pay? I’ve never been clear on how the OTP pay really happens. So you will get paid as you flew the trip. 3 months later you will have the hours deducted. Pay summery will show -X hours at the top. You will see in your OTP(same as PMU) bank the X hours. You will get 125% for those hours flown, and will be able to go -6(the -6 at straight pay) in that bank. With that in mind, if you don't have much in your make up bank choosing sub does give you the option of -6 hours in the OTP bank. Why we don't have cancellation pay like every regional airline is crazy. Makes 0 sense, but it is what it is. IMHO, OTP is the only option when put in Sub as a commuter. |
Occam's Razor
Section 69.1.a. of the contract should read "If a trip you are currently on extends into a subsequent trip, the subsequent trip shall be removed from the pilot's calendar with pay, PERIOD.
|
Originally Posted by SwaggerJack
(Post 2802762)
Section 69.1.a. of the contract should read "If a trip you are currently on extends into a subsequent trip, the subsequent trip shall be removed from the pilot's calendar with pay, PERIOD.
What he said. |
Originally Posted by SwaggerJack
(Post 2802762)
Section 69.1.a. of the contract should read "If a trip you are currently on extends into a subsequent trip, the subsequent trip shall be removed from the pilot's calendar with pay, PERIOD.
Yup. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by SwaggerJack
(Post 2802762)
Section 69.1.a. of the contract should read "If a trip you are currently on extends into a subsequent trip, the subsequent trip shall be removed from the pilot's calendar with pay, PERIOD.
What you Don't get is all of the Overage, at 150% for your original trip. Only get Overage for the period of Time you're not on a pay status. In general, if your Revision will have you getting back to Memphis 12 hours late, then either choosing OTP or Declining SUB outright will get you more money-especially if there's an EDP involved there. (EG-you show at 9 for the leg to Memphis only to learn the plane's hard down, parts +2 and the part is scheduled to arrive around 5AM....so, CRS sends you back to the hotel for 9'sh hours with an AM HSBY. Plane's fixed at 8 AM and CRS calls you up to return you to Memphis. You'd get about 4 hours at 150%, another 1.5CH for the HSBY, and 3.5CH for the extra duty period. OR, you could've stayed in SUB knowing the Company can't possibly use you since you're still on a trip and collected the 6 hours for the conflicted trip. OR...just in case they fix the plane early, you can Wait to Decline SUB until you block-in after returning to Memphis. Or when you wake up the next morning and know you'll come out ahead with the Overage. OR, after you get back to the hotel at 11 and have a quick cocktail you could opt for OTP which would still be prior to your Conflicted Trips showtime...would act as insurance to a quick fix or CRS change of the Mind Revision 2 |
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2802805)
You DO get paid for the trip, PERIOD...that's what the Default Option is. Remain in Substitution.
What you Don't get is all of the Overage, at 150% for your original trip. Only get Overage for the period of Time you're not on a pay status. In general, if your Revision will have you getting back to Memphis 12 hours late, then either choosing OTP or Declining SUB outright will get you more money-especially if there's an EDP involved there. (EG-you show at 9 for the leg to Memphis only to learn the plane's hard down, parts +2 and the part is scheduled to arrive around 5AM....so, CRS sends you back to the hotel for 9'sh hours with an AM HSBY. Plane's fixed at 8 AM and CRS calls you up to return you to Memphis. You'd get about 4 hours at 150%, another 1.5CH for the HSBY, and 3.5CH for the extra duty period. OR, you could've stayed in SUB knowing the Company can't possibly use you since you're still on a trip and collected the 6 hours for the conflicted trip. OR...just in case they fix the plane early, you can Wait to Decline SUB until you block-in after returning to Memphis. Or when you wake up the next morning and know you'll come out ahead with the Overage. OR, after you get back to the hotel at 11 and have a quick cocktail you could opt for OTP which would still be prior to your Conflicted Trips showtime...would act as insurance to a quick fix or CRS change of the Mind Revision 2 Do you know what cancelation pay is? Also, neat story with that plane breaking and overage. My trip in 2 weeks just canceled and I'm now in sub. Now what?? Just pay me and let me live my life and not be on the hook. |
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2802805)
You DO get paid for the trip, PERIOD...that's what the Default Option is. Remain in Substitution.
What you Don't get is all of the Overage, at 150% for your original trip. Only get Overage for the period of Time you're not on a pay status. In general, if your Revision will have you getting back to Memphis 12 hours late, then either choosing OTP or Declining SUB outright will get you more money-especially if there's an EDP involved there. (EG-you show at 9 for the leg to Memphis only to learn the plane's hard down, parts +2 and the part is scheduled to arrive around 5AM....so, CRS sends you back to the hotel for 9'sh hours with an AM HSBY. Plane's fixed at 8 AM and CRS calls you up to return you to Memphis. You'd get about 4 hours at 150%, another 1.5CH for the HSBY, and 3.5CH for the extra duty period. OR, you could've stayed in SUB knowing the Company can't possibly use you since you're still on a trip and collected the 6 hours for the conflicted trip. OR...just in case they fix the plane early, you can Wait to Decline SUB until you block-in after returning to Memphis. Or when you wake up the next morning and know you'll come out ahead with the Overage. OR, after you get back to the hotel at 11 and have a quick cocktail you could opt for OTP which would still be prior to your Conflicted Trips showtime...would act as insurance to a quick fix or CRS change of the Mind Revision 2 Or get paid for the current trip with overages and get cancellation pay for the next trip. That would be a lot easier if we have it in the next contract. |
Okay - PhD level stuff now.
Your TAFB trip gets extended into your next trip which is completely covered by the footprint of the extended trip. Say there are exactly 24 hours between the trips. That 6.4 CH worth of time between trips is going to be paid at 150% as overage even if you choose SUB. You just don't get any of the overage that occurs after the SUB trip starts. However - "Overage" is specifically defined in the section 4 BB of the contract and has nothing to do with disruptions (other than they often occur simultaneously). So, my question is: Without getting into the details of good or bad choices in my example - If you elect SUB and had two extra duty periods and two extra landings on your revised trip that occurred "under" the footprint of the SUB, would you get paid for those? They're not technically "overage", they're disruptions. It seems like you would get paid for those and just give up the true overage pay that falls under the SUB trip footprint, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. |
Originally Posted by harvick4
(Post 2802831)
You lost me at "You DO get paid"
Do you know what cancelation pay is? Also, neat story with that plane breaking and overage. My trip in 2 weeks just canceled and I'm now in sub. Now what?? Just pay me and let me live my life and not be on the hook. Barring a 777 Month Long 70CH trip going away, virtually guarantee you'll be able to fill that 6 CH hole and be paid 7.5CH's to do so And No, not familiar with all the details of Cancellation pay. I do know, from perusing Delta's last Contract Comparison that Every Major has Rotation Guarantee and Everyone also has a Recover Obligation. What do they mean by Recovery Obligation? Delta's says 6 hours of Availability after Report with the Return from Original trip 4 hours; same calendar day for Ocean Crossing American says 2 hours (4 hours if removed prior to Report) and then Deomestic 4 hours or 1:59 whichever is later, ocean crossing 30 hours United says 2 hours (4 hours if removed prior to report)...and Original Trip Alaska says Unlimited after report (boy that sounds scary)...return from original trip 5 hours Hawaiian also Unlimited. Recovery flying may not be longer than the original trip and must touch one day of the original trip Jet Blue's pretty complex. Southwest says must contact (s)Crew Scheduling for reassignment And there's a Simple Yes to Recovery Obligation for both FedEx and UPS |
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2802805)
You DO get paid for the trip, PERIOD...that's what the Default Option is. Remain in Substitution.
What you Don't get is all of the Overage, at 150% for your original trip. Only get Overage for the period of Time you're not on a pay status. In general, if your Revision will have you getting back to Memphis 12 hours late, then either choosing OTP or Declining SUB outright will get you more money-especially if there's an EDP involved there. (EG-you show at 9 for the leg to Memphis only to learn the plane's hard down, parts +2 and the part is scheduled to arrive around 5AM....so, CRS sends you back to the hotel for 9'sh hours with an AM HSBY. Plane's fixed at 8 AM and CRS calls you up to return you to Memphis. You'd get about 4 hours at 150%, another 1.5CH for the HSBY, and 3.5CH for the extra duty period. OR, you could've stayed in SUB knowing the Company can't possibly use you since you're still on a trip and collected the 6 hours for the conflicted trip. OR...just in case they fix the plane early, you can Wait to Decline SUB until you block-in after returning to Memphis. Or when you wake up the next morning and know you'll come out ahead with the Overage. OR, after you get back to the hotel at 11 and have a quick cocktail you could opt for OTP which would still be prior to your Conflicted Trips showtime...would act as insurance to a quick fix or CRS change of the Mind Revision 2 AK ... company's apologizer. |
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 2802852)
Okay - PhD level stuff now.
Your TAFB trip gets extended into your next trip which is completely covered by the footprint of the extended trip. Say there are exactly 24 hours between the trips. That 6.4 CH worth of time between trips is going to be paid at 150% as overage even if you choose SUB. You just don't get any of the overage that occurs after the SUB trip starts. However - "Overage" is specifically defined in the section 4 BB of the contract and has nothing to do with disruptions (other than they often occur simultaneously). So, my question is: Without getting into the details of good or bad choices in my example - If you elect SUB and had two extra duty periods and two extra landings on your revised trip that occurred "under" the footprint of the SUB, would you get paid for those? They're not technically "overage", they're disruptions. It seems like you would get paid for those and just give up the true overage pay that falls under the SUB trip footprint, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. But extra landings that occur during an Extra Duty period are freebies. And, as I understand it, Extra duty Periods and disruptions would be paid regardless of whether you Decline SUB entirely or Choose OTP to decline SUB and retain pay protection to get the overage. Bonus to Overlapping days is the 150% of Overage Pay versus the 100% pay for the conflicted trip |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2802882)
AK ... company's apologizer.
Why should I have to apologize for that? Elimination of SUB wasn't even on the agenda for CBA 06, nor 15. IF it is for CBA202X, I'll happily fly my line and protect min days off while we strive towards that goal. Just not sure how achievable that goal actually is. But if that's what the majority of my peers want to work for, well, I know what side I'm on. |
But if I'm apologizing for things that are part of FedEx.
Please, allow me to apologize for being unable to eliminate all Carryover at straight time during the last 2 rounds of negotiations. Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the makeup bank process that prevents people from working as much as they want. Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the +12 CH trade up provisions since we stuck with the whole makeup bank thing. Please, allow me to apologize for not formulating Contractual Protection requiring Basic Charter HSBY footprints from being built into the Bidpack to prevent the Wolfpack. |
Can someone help me understand why I would ever select option 1 (drop the trip in conflict, receive overage on first trip) when I can select option 3 (receive OTP for the trip in conflict, receive overage for first trip)?
|
That entire system makes no sense and needs to be changed. If I get involuntarily extended which conflicts with my next trip, that trip should be dropped with pay. Even with OTP, there may not be anything in open time to pick up or you may get that “earlier time stamp” notification. Add a few more things to the list.
1. If a trip conflicts with training, it should get dropped with pay. 2. If you submit for your passport or visas and don’t get it in time to start a trip, that trip should be dropped with pay. And you shouldn’t have to get your passport or visas during your personal time off or vacation. 3.There should be no substitution. 4. Improve the A Plan and/or 5. Increase the B 6. Give profit sharing If 4-6 are not met next TA should definitely be a no vote. |
Overage/Sub/OTP FCIF
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2802891)
But if I'm apologizing for things that are part of FedEx.
Please, allow me to apologize for being unable to eliminate all Carryover at straight time during the last 2 rounds of negotiations. Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the makeup bank process that prevents people from working as much as they want. Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the +12 CH trade up provisions since we stuck with the whole makeup bank thing. Please, allow me to apologize for not formulating Contractual Protection requiring Basic Charter HSBY footprints from being built into the Bidpack to prevent the Wolfpack. I think he meant that Alaska in general is the company’s apologizer. As for your post, there are other ways to prevent pilots from picking up unlimitedly and get rid of the banks. As for other airlines (AAL, DAL, UAL), my reading of the UAL contract and talking with friends at those airlines, they all protect pay for the trip lost, have provisions to be reassigned a trip or reserve within the original footprint of the trip lost, and have provisions for restoring any days off you originally had. All of them differ in the details of how those things are done, phone availability, reassignment restrictions, etc, but they protect the integrity of the pilots’ schedule and pay a lot more than our systems seems to. And probably just as important, it’s a whole lot simpler to understand. |
Originally Posted by Check6Viper
(Post 2802995)
Can someone help me understand why I would ever select option 1 (drop the trip in conflict, receive overage on first trip) when I can select option 3 (receive OTP for the trip in conflict, receive overage for first trip)?
If it's after show time for the dropped trip, you cannot elect OTP (unless you were notified after showtime, then you are supposed to elect OTP immediately if you want it), therefore the choice to drop the trip and get overage, or stay in sub. I can't find it in the contract, but I believe that you have until the end of when the dropped trip was scheduled to chose to make the choice. All the more reason to not pick up crew notifications until you have the time, can look at something closely, and are able to make an informed decision. Do not even click on a crew notification until you are ready to deal with the ramifications of it. Could our sub policy even be more confusing? |
Originally Posted by Check6Viper
(Post 2802995)
Can someone help me understand why I would ever select option 1 (drop the trip in conflict, receive overage on first trip) when I can select option 3 (receive OTP for the trip in conflict, receive overage for first trip)?
The most lucrative CH week I've ever had at FedEx was a result of SUB\Extensions. DH to work on Monday, Monday's flight was swept to Indy and revised with a rest\HSBY, then revised with a rest\HSBY...rinse repeat until Operated out Friday AM with a backend DH. Same footprint as my 30 hour hub turn week, big CHs thanks to the 150% and 200% overage, Extra Duty periods, and disruptions. After we made it to the hotel that first night, and I grabbed a midnight beer to preclude a CRS change of the mind, I opted for OTP for that 1st 6 hour trip that went away, and then the 2nd, but 3rd & 4th I declined outright. Back then OTP was bid period +1, so might make a different choice today. But again, that would depend on the timing. Ultimately, you will always get more $$ choosing OTP. But the cost is another day of work, somewhen. If you have a staycation month during that somewhen, cherry picking an extra day of work isn't a big deal. All depends upon what you want to do. Substitution is one of the very few times where the power to work\not work is totally under a pilots control. And if you have day flying, you can even say NO to CRS's BS Sub assignment with certain conditions and not impact on your pay. Spend some time chair-flying Substitution. Once you understand it, evaluating your options and making a decision is easy. And, you can make more $$ by understanding it and exercising your choice. Or, you can do nothing and simply be paid BLG. Or, you can wind up working extra when you didn't really have to. (Had one bud with a trip removed for legality, he was leaning towards OTP when I pointed out that there would be no WAY for the company to Legally give him a SUB assignment so why go for an extra 90 minutes of pay in exchange for an extra day of work in the future when he could simply have a paid day off. His rationale was that he didn't want to stay in Memphis for his IAP on the SUB window, and I pointed out that there's no Requirement to stay in Memphis or at the airport during the IAP...and that you can always say NO to a SUB assignment. But a SUB assignment has to be a Legal assignment and since he was removed for Legality....not an option to use him that night) |
OK, it used to be that you didn't have to stay in MEM for the IAP, so I would get on the jump seat, betting they wouldn't call me. If they did, and they couldn't talk to you, that was considered a "decline sub" event.
They I heard that the company was calling people, and if they didn't answer, it was not longer a decline of sub, like it used to be, but something else, I can't remember what. Can someone clarify whether or not you can get on the J/S during the IAP without harming yourself? |
Kronan,
Thank you for the explanation. |
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
(Post 2806537)
OK, it used to be that you didn't have to stay in MEM for the IAP, so I would get on the jump seat, betting they wouldn't call me. If they did, and they couldn't talk to you, that was considered a "decline sub" event.
They I heard that the company was calling people, and if they didn't answer, it was not longer a decline of sub, like it used to be, but something else, I can't remember what. Can someone clarify whether or not you can get on the J/S during the IAP without harming yourself? I communicate. I call Scheduling and ask them what's what? Anything happening. And then I tell them I'm on FedEx 1234, and will be unavailable for about 90 minutes in my case. Let them know that I will be declining any Operating trip, but will likely accept any DH to work trip but that I will check VIPs as soon as I land and let them know ASAP before I start driving home. I do the same thing when I'm HSBY and it's Dinner\lunch time. I call CRS and let them know I'm on my cell. Or when I'm unavailable during a flight physical. |
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2806284)
You may have a ton of events upcoming and don't want to work another day, somewhen in the future.
The most lucrative CH week I've ever had at FedEx was a result of SUB\Extensions. DH to work on Monday, Monday's flight was swept to Indy and revised with a rest\HSBY, then revised with a rest\HSBY...rinse repeat until Operated out Friday AM with a backend DH. Same footprint as my 30 hour hub turn week, big CHs thanks to the 150% and 200% overage, Extra Duty periods, and disruptions. After we made it to the hotel that first night, and I grabbed a midnight beer to preclude a CRS change of the mind, I opted for OTP for that 1st 6 hour trip that went away, and then the 2nd, but 3rd & 4th I declined outright. Back then OTP was bid period +1, so might make a different choice today. But again, that would depend on the timing. Ultimately, you will always get more $$ choosing OTP. But the cost is another day of work, somewhen. If you have a staycation month during that somewhen, cherry picking an extra day of work isn't a big deal. All depends upon what you want to do. Substitution is one of the very few times where the power to work\not work is totally under a pilots control. And if you have day flying, you can even say NO to CRS's BS Sub assignment with certain conditions and not impact on your pay. Spend some time chair-flying Substitution. Once you understand it, evaluating your options and making a decision is easy. And, you can make more $$ by understanding it and exercising your choice. Or, you can do nothing and simply be paid BLG. Or, you can wind up working extra when you didn't really have to. (Had one bud with a trip removed for legality, he was leaning towards OTP when I pointed out that there would be no WAY for the company to Legally give him a SUB assignment so why go for an extra 90 minutes of pay in exchange for an extra day of work in the future when he could simply have a paid day off. His rationale was that he didn't want to stay in Memphis for his IAP on the SUB window, and I pointed out that there's no Requirement to stay in Memphis or at the airport during the IAP...and that you can always say NO to a SUB assignment. But a SUB assignment has to be a Legal assignment and since he was removed for Legality....not an option to use him that night) How many different iterations of possible scenarios should we chair fly? The substitution chart doesn’t make sense to me and gives me a headache just looking at it (probably because no one I’ve asked so far has been able to make sense of it to me, but then again, I’m just a pilot). There is something to be said for simplicity. The problem with these type of contractual clauses that supposedly is good with pilots is that ultimately, if the pilot doesn’t understand it, it’s useless. When a contract is overly complicated, it makes it less likely for pilots to be able to enforce it. If it’s difficult to interpret, the pilots won’t know when they are being abused. The contract needs to be simplified. |
Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 2806959)
How many different iterations of possible scenarios should we chair fly? The substitution chart doesn’t make sense to me and gives me a headache just looking at it (probably because no one I’ve asked so far has been able to make sense of it to me, but then again, I’m just a pilot).
There is something to be said for simplicity. The problem with these type of contractual clauses that supposedly is good with pilots is that ultimately, if the pilot doesn’t understand it, it’s useless. When a contract is overly complicated, it makes it less likely for pilots to be able to enforce it. If it’s difficult to interpret, the pilots won’t know when they are being abused. The contract needs to be simplified. Early cancel. Which happens occasionally when the equipment changes post bid award, but prior to the month starting. Few years back had one Airbus friend go into SUB every Tuesday + Thursday for the entire month due to this. Small trip overlap. EG, supposed to be back at Midnight and you have an 0130 show, but you don't block in til 0200. (Note-Company might\might not remove you and place you in SUB for an overlap like this. Only requirement is to reschedule your outbound departure to accommodate one hour in Memphis. In this example, simply putting an ETD of 0300 works. Note-NO debrief time required and you'll likely walk into AOC with a Contact Crew Scheduling page echoing and the potential to have to call to check-in) Big trip overlap. EG-you return at least 12 hours later, but more likely your return slips a day. (A small subset is removed for legality or a weather cancellation---EG, Nothing CRS can Use you for. Situations like this pretty much a no brainer to stay in SUB. But that's just me. I've spent some time chair flying the various options and thus, don't have to reinvent the wheel every time SUB comes my way) |
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2807011)
There are 3 scenarios.
Early cancel. Which happens occasionally when the equipment changes post bid award, but prior to the month starting. Few years back had one Airbus friend go into SUB every Tuesday + Thursday for the entire month due to this. Small trip overlap. EG, supposed to be back at Midnight and you have an 0130 show, but you don't block in til 0200. (Note-Company might\might not remove you and place you in SUB for an overlap like this. Only requirement is to reschedule your outbound departure to accommodate one hour in Memphis. In this example, simply putting an ETD of 0300 works. Note-NO debrief time required and you'll likely walk into AOC with a Contact Crew Scheduling page echoing and the potential to have to call to check-in) Big trip overlap. EG-you return at least 12 hours later, but more likely your return slips a day. (A small subset is removed for legality or a weather cancellation---EG, Nothing CRS can Use you for. Situations like this pretty much a no brainer to stay in SUB. But that's just me. I've spent some time chair flying the various options and thus, don't have to reinvent the wheel every time SUB comes my way) Stay in SUB. Worst case you lose the trip overage if you don't know what you're doing. Something I guarantee FedEx is happy not paying. Happy that Pilots don't want to make the effort to understand how various things impact their Pay. Absolutely overjoyed to have Pilots fail to file for the Disruption compensation they are owed in certain circumstances. And totally copacetic with people simply claiming the 10$ or 0$ on a NOCAT pairing instead of the 25$ they are contractually owed. |
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
(Post 2806537)
OK, it used to be that you didn't have to stay in MEM for the IAP, so I would get on the jump seat, betting they wouldn't call me. If they did, and they couldn't talk to you, that was considered a "decline sub" event.
They I heard that the company was calling people, and if they didn't answer, it was not longer a decline of sub, like it used to be, but something else, I can't remember what. Can someone clarify whether or not you can get on the J/S during the IAP without harming yourself? I think if I was jumpseating home during my availability period, right before I went out to the airplane, I'd give them a heads up that I'm going to be on a jumpseat during that time. I would never call them to tell them I'm going to eat dinner during a standby period, that would be aggravating calling them every time I leave the hotel room. But I do call them at the beginning of my hotel standby trip to tell them to call my cell phone first if they need me. |
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
(Post 2806537)
They I heard that the company was calling people, and if they didn't answer, it was not longer a decline of sub, like it used to be, but something else, I can't remember what.
Can someone clarify whether or not you can get on the J/S during the IAP without harming yourself? Section 25.H.3. Initial Availability Period. Beginning 4 hours prior to the showtime of his original trip or once notified of substitution eligibility, which is later, HE SHALL BE AVAILABLE for substitution assignment until 4 hours after showtime of his original trip. If you decided to go home and were on the jumpseat when CRS called you for a substitution assignment, they considered you not available for contact and gave you a Irregularity Response requiring a chat with the Chief Pilot.
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2807012)
You know what the Default Option is?
Stay in SUB. Worst case you lose the trip overage if you don't know what you're doing. Something I guarantee FedEx is happy not paying. Happy that Pilots don't want to make the effort to understand how various things impact their Pay. Absolutely overjoyed to have Pilots fail to file for the Disruption compensation they are owed in certain circumstances. And totally copacetic with people simply claiming the 10$ or 0$ on a NOCAT pairing instead of the 25$ they are contractually owed. .... overjoyed to have a Union which agrees to a contract implementation plan which takes years to execute but doesn't tell new members that things they've read in the new contract they were given haven't been implimented yet so they don't go out and get themselves in trouble. Or in my experience, the type of union where you ask someone about a contract topic while at work and you get two responses: "I don't know." "Contact your sponsor." And depending on who you talk to in contract enforcement, they don't know the answer either. |
Overage/Sub/OTP FCIF
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2807011)
There are 3 scenarios.
Early cancel. Which happens occasionally when the equipment changes post bid award, but prior to the month starting. Few years back had one Airbus friend go into SUB every Tuesday + Thursday for the entire month due to this. Small trip overlap. EG, supposed to be back at Midnight and you have an 0130 show, but you don't block in til 0200. (Note-Company might\might not remove you and place you in SUB for an overlap like this. Only requirement is to reschedule your outbound departure to accommodate one hour in Memphis. In this example, simply putting an ETD of 0300 works. Note-NO debrief time required and you'll likely walk into AOC with a Contact Crew Scheduling page echoing and the potential to have to call to check-in) Big trip overlap. EG-you return at least 12 hours later, but more likely your return slips a day. (A small subset is removed for legality or a weather cancellation---EG, Nothing CRS can Use you for. Situations like this pretty much a no brainer to stay in SUB. But that's just me. I've spent some time chair flying the various options and thus, don't have to reinvent the wheel every time SUB comes my way) Well I had a different scenario than that where I had a RAT. What is a RAT? I figured it out easy enough but apparently I was put into Sub, whatever that was/is (that one is whole lot more complicated to figure out). And ultimately had no idea about any of this because I hadn’t logged in until after the fact. No big deal, I was deviating anyway and luckily it worked out. It just simply doesn’t need to be this complicated, period. And nothing anyone says is going to convince me of that short of throwing a whole lot more money at it so that I can justify it with more pay.
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2807012)
You know what the Default Option is?
Stay in SUB. Worst case you lose the trip overage if you don't know what you're doing. Something I guarantee FedEx is happy not paying. Happy that Pilots don't want to make the effort to understand how various things impact their Pay. Absolutely overjoyed to have Pilots fail to file for the Disruption compensation they are owed in certain circumstances. And totally copacetic with people simply claiming the 10$ or 0$ on a NOCAT pairing instead of the 25$ they are contractually owed. I’m not sure why you are quoting arguing against yourself unless you forgot to log out and then log in with a different username. But you are making my point. Luckily I had a captain graciously and unsolicitedly tell me to file NOCAT, what it was, and how to do it. That one is simple enough, as long as one knows about it or is told about it. |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2807221)
Yes. This started during contract negotiations.
Section 25.H.3. Initial Availability Period. Beginning 4 hours prior to the showtime of his original trip or once notified of substitution eligibility, which is later, HE SHALL BE AVAILABLE for substitution assignment until 4 hours after showtime of his original trip. If you decided to go home and were on the jumpseat when CRS called you for a substitution assignment, they considered you not available for contact and gave you a Irregularity Response requiring a chat with the Chief Pilot. Are you then good to get on a j/s at showtime + 4:01 if they haven’t assigned you? |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:06 AM. |
User Alert System provided by
Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) -
vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands