UPS vs FDX Pension
04-18-2022, 11:54 AM
#11
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Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 1,804
Originally Posted by Sluggo_63
Basically if you tell FedEx early enough (12 months?) that you're going to retire, there's a sizeable chunk of money that comes your way. It was all for planning. You could conceivably tell FedEx you're retiring last minute and just do it, with no notice. FedEx didn't like that for planning purposes, so they incentivized early notification.
04-18-2022, 02:39 PM
#12
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
UPS vs FDX Pension
Originally Posted by jetlaggy
Anyone care to expand on the Advance Notice of Planned Retirement bonus? How does that work?
And career F/Os are mentioned. Are there a considerable amount at Fedex? And are you saying they still get the same pension as a captain?
And career F/Os are mentioned. Are there a considerable amount at Fedex? And are you saying they still get the same pension as a captain?
The quick and dirty:
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of:
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
c. $110,000.
All pilots, including career FOs, have the same defined benefit plan.
04-18-2022, 02:47 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
One thing to note, FedEx's advance notice of retirement bonus only applies if you retire at age 60 or older. If you retire at less than age 60, you don't get a single penny for selling back sick time or giving advance notice of retirement.
04-18-2022, 03:58 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by busdriver12
One thing to note, FedEx's advance notice of retirement bonus only applies if you retire at age 60 or older. If you retire at less than age 60, you don't get a single penny for selling back sick time or giving advance notice of retirement.
Originally Posted by FXLAX
The quick and dirty:
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of:
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
c. $110,000.
All pilots, including career FOs, have the same defined benefit plan.
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of:
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
c. $110,000.
All pilots, including career FOs, have the same defined benefit plan.
One important aspect that is being left off is that unless you are retiring at age 65, you have to work until December 31 in the year you turn 60 to get the buy back. If your birthday is Jan 1, and you want the buy back, you have to work until the day before you turn 61.
04-18-2022, 09:17 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
Originally Posted by pinseeker
One important aspect that is being left off is that unless you are retiring at age 65, you have to work until December 31 in the year you turn 60 to get the buy back. If your birthday is Jan 1, and you want the buy back, you have to work until the day before you turn 61.
04-19-2022, 01:44 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,109
Originally Posted by busdriver12
One thing to note, FedEx's advance notice of retirement bonus only applies if you retire at age 60 or older. If you retire at less than age 60, you don't get a single penny for selling back sick time or giving advance notice of retirement.
04-19-2022, 01:48 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 1,109
Originally Posted by kronan
For right now, FedEx's Retirement is still better than UPS, IMO. Especially if you're going to be a career FO.
Pension Values, FedEx, UPS Captain, UPS FO. Using 2023 FDA values of $4,400 and $3,520
20 years. $104k\$88k\$70.4k
23 years. $119.6k\$101.2k\$80.96k
25 years. $130k\$110k\$88k
28 years. $130k\$127.6k\$98.56k
30 years. $130k\$132k\$105.6k
The additional B fund contribution doesn't make as big of a difference as people assume, since we are both Capped at the same income level. But it is the Volume of earnings that drives the end value of our B plans, and, IMO, the opportunity to upgrade to Captain occurs earlier at FedEx than UPS. Haven't checked recently, but last year there were almost as many Captains at FedEx as there were pilots at UPS. And there are a LOT of "young" FO's on the 777 earning International Pay as well as the extra BKO.
One thing that FedEx has is the ability for excess sick leave to be contributed to our "B" plan. (It's part of our Defined Contribution pot of money, not truly the B plan. And it's Cash over Cap so those who max out Aft Tax Contributions receive it as taxable income).
Not sure if UPS has that, or how UPS treats unused Sick Leave.
Nor do I know if UPS allows Aft-Tax contributions into their 401k, which allows the Mega Backdoor Roth.
Nor do I know if UPS has an Advance Notice of Planned Retirement bonus, for those lucky enough to be healthy (rumor is that's roughly 60% of us)...it's a big, big chunk of money.
Nor do I know if UPS allows a Retired Pilot to Defer collecting their FDA calculated pension for a year to bump up the value. (For FedEx, deferring 1 year roughly changes your $130k pension into a $143k pension)
Pension Values, FedEx, UPS Captain, UPS FO. Using 2023 FDA values of $4,400 and $3,520
20 years. $104k\$88k\$70.4k
23 years. $119.6k\$101.2k\$80.96k
25 years. $130k\$110k\$88k
28 years. $130k\$127.6k\$98.56k
30 years. $130k\$132k\$105.6k
The additional B fund contribution doesn't make as big of a difference as people assume, since we are both Capped at the same income level. But it is the Volume of earnings that drives the end value of our B plans, and, IMO, the opportunity to upgrade to Captain occurs earlier at FedEx than UPS. Haven't checked recently, but last year there were almost as many Captains at FedEx as there were pilots at UPS. And there are a LOT of "young" FO's on the 777 earning International Pay as well as the extra BKO.
One thing that FedEx has is the ability for excess sick leave to be contributed to our "B" plan. (It's part of our Defined Contribution pot of money, not truly the B plan. And it's Cash over Cap so those who max out Aft Tax Contributions receive it as taxable income).
Not sure if UPS has that, or how UPS treats unused Sick Leave.
Nor do I know if UPS allows Aft-Tax contributions into their 401k, which allows the Mega Backdoor Roth.
Nor do I know if UPS has an Advance Notice of Planned Retirement bonus, for those lucky enough to be healthy (rumor is that's roughly 60% of us)...it's a big, big chunk of money.
Nor do I know if UPS allows a Retired Pilot to Defer collecting their FDA calculated pension for a year to bump up the value. (For FedEx, deferring 1 year roughly changes your $130k pension into a $143k pension)
There are likely more captains at United than there are pilots at Fedex - doesn't really tell you anything except that United has a lot more pilots. Same with the UPS comparison.
Best way to compare would be to look at book rates of each *1000 with normal and equal progression. When you calculate that and add in the average career and average retirement age and the value of that extra B fund at UPS it will, for most people in that average category, make the entire retirement at UPS more valuable. Not to mention that the B fund money is yours forever - unlike the DB plan. It's always best to have your retirement split between two IRS buckets to maximize tax savings and I used to believe we had the better plan but when our DB cap never raised and UPS got an increase in FDA on two contracts AND an increase in their DC plan I believe there's is the best now. You can work your own numbers on a spreadsheet to see the extra value of those DC contributions.
Of course that could all change if we could achieve an improvement to our cap (unlikely to get a YOS increase tho and UPS has the 30 year already)
04-19-2022, 02:31 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: 777
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by FXLAX
The quick and dirty:
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of:
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
c. $110,000.
All pilots, including career FOs, have the same defined benefit plan.
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of:
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
c. $110,000.
All pilots, including career FOs, have the same defined benefit plan.
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of: (in case it's not obvious, this means you need to max out a. and b. to get c. $110,000)
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
This says your eligible earnings need to be $740,000 in your last two-years so that when the amount over $520,000 ($220,000) is cut in half, it's at least $110,000.
It's also important to note, that NONE of these eligible earnings can be from sick leave (see 28.F.3).
It's not that difficult for a WB captain to make at least $740,000 in his last two years, but it's not a cush schedule for someone planning to slide off into retirement either.
Better hope nothing unexpected comes up in those last two years that requires significant use of your DSA - otherwise, your bonus will be less than the max.
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
Guess what half of a maxed out DSA (686 CH) times our max WB captain's rate is? About $115,000.
So again, someone who wants to make sure they get the full bonus better not tap into that DSA bank too much. Just what we need, a pilot making decisions on his fitness for duty using a financial incentive as one of his metrics.
c. $110,000.
So there will be guys like USMCFDX who don't choose this path and retire with zero sick time. But for every one of those guys, you gotta figure there's at least one (I'll bet wayyyyy more) who's gonna try for that maximum bonus. Bravo to the company on this one. They got a year's warning on a pilot's retirement while they dangled .50 on the sick time dollar to get a retiring pilot (especially a retiring FO) to work a pretty robust schedule their last two years and not take much, if any, sick leave during that same time period.
04-19-2022, 05:08 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD11 F/O
Posts: 53
Originally Posted by Emmerson Bigs
It's important to read between the lines on this "benefit" as well as understand some of the "fine print" that isn't in the contract language above. There's a little more to it than just providing 12 month's notice on your retirement and throwing $110,000 in your pocket.
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of: (in case it's not obvious, this means you need to max out a. and b. to get c. $110,000)
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
This says your eligible earnings need to be $740,000 in your last two-years so that when the amount over $520,000 ($220,000) is cut in half, it's at least $110,000.
It's also important to note, that NONE of these eligible earnings can be from sick leave (see 28.F.3).
It's not that difficult for a WB captain to make at least $740,000 in his last two years, but it's not a cush schedule for someone planning to slide off into retirement either.
Better hope nothing unexpected comes up in those last two years that requires significant use of your DSA - otherwise, your bonus will be less than the max.
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
Guess what half of a maxed out DSA (686 CH) times our max WB captain's rate is? About $115,000.
So again, someone who wants to make sure they get the full bonus better not tap into that DSA bank too much. Just what we need, a pilot making decisions on his fitness for duty using a financial incentive as one of his metrics.
c. $110,000.
So there will be guys like USMCFDX who don't choose this path and retire with zero sick time. But for every one of those guys, you gotta figure there's at least one (I'll bet wayyyyy more) who's gonna try for that maximum bonus. Bravo to the company on this one. They got a year's warning on a pilot's retirement while they dangled .50 on the sick time dollar to get a retiring pilot (especially a retiring FO) to work a pretty robust schedule their last two years and not take much, if any, sick leave during that same time period.
If a pilot gives 12 months notice, his bonus shall be the lesser of: (in case it's not obvious, this means you need to max out a. and b. to get c. $110,000)
a. 50% of the pilot’s eligible earnings in excess of $520,000 (in his last 24 calendar months as a pilot);or
This says your eligible earnings need to be $740,000 in your last two-years so that when the amount over $520,000 ($220,000) is cut in half, it's at least $110,000.
It's also important to note, that NONE of these eligible earnings can be from sick leave (see 28.F.3).
It's not that difficult for a WB captain to make at least $740,000 in his last two years, but it's not a cush schedule for someone planning to slide off into retirement either.
Better hope nothing unexpected comes up in those last two years that requires significant use of your DSA - otherwise, your bonus will be less than the max.
b. 50% of the pilot’s closing DSA bank balance, multiplied by his last hourly rate, or
Guess what half of a maxed out DSA (686 CH) times our max WB captain's rate is? About $115,000.
So again, someone who wants to make sure they get the full bonus better not tap into that DSA bank too much. Just what we need, a pilot making decisions on his fitness for duty using a financial incentive as one of his metrics.
c. $110,000.
So there will be guys like USMCFDX who don't choose this path and retire with zero sick time. But for every one of those guys, you gotta figure there's at least one (I'll bet wayyyyy more) who's gonna try for that maximum bonus. Bravo to the company on this one. They got a year's warning on a pilot's retirement while they dangled .50 on the sick time dollar to get a retiring pilot (especially a retiring FO) to work a pretty robust schedule their last two years and not take much, if any, sick leave during that same time period.
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