Bottom line is that management has to compete for pilots. So it doesn’t matter what they say. It matters what the marketplace is doing.

Ohhh the agony. “Forced” to see his posts - LOL, thanks for the laugh.

We had our own union before. We decided to join ALPA because of the funds available in a larger union. If you are one small group, you don't have the resources of a larger union.

5millionaire, the OP likes to say they are a FedEx pilot and are engaged with the union, yet continues to post things that the MEC says not to post. The OP has also admitted to flying draft in 8 of the 15 months that we have been in negotiations, but their reasons are valid and everyone else is hurting us.

Bottom line, it is an individual decision until we are allowed to enter self help. Everyone likes to tell others what to do, yet has a reason why what they are doing is ok. The contract allows us to fly draft, AVA, deviate on deadheads, sell back vacation, trip trade, pick up trips etc....

We did not crush everyones pay rates when we signed our contract in 2015. We were only a little higher than AA. Prior to our 2015 contract, we were last in pay rates behind, AA, UA, DL, and UPS. We briefly jumped ahead, only to fall behind by 10% or more. We were sold a POS TA by the union and 56% of the group fell for it because they were afraid to challenge the leadership, kind of like the OP and others.

while I echo some of your sentiment…saying it’s solely on the pilot group is inaccurate. Leadership is about getting a group of people to work towards something collectively. You can’t have it both ways. I don’t have much of an opinion about the union “leadership” and maybe there’s a reason? You can’t praise a group of “leaders” if the collective group doesn’t want to listen to them. Again, I agree there are too many independent contractor types. But in the same breath saying the leadership is strong seems like an oxymoron.

My frustration caused me to say “going forward I was going to do draft/ava”. This was out of frustration and never acted on. I made that clear in further posts. I have integrity and couldn’t live with myself acting in a scab/self serving manner. I actually have a conscious, unlike the majority in our pilot group.

You constantly spew false narratives and half truths. Amendable date was clearly the line in the sand when the union said “Now Is The Time”. Amendable date (Nov 2021) is the expiration date of our current CBA. We have picketed and still the pigs feed at the trough. Despicable.

You have consistently defended the anti unity narrative. You must be in management or a management wannabe?

Once again total compensation is much more than 10/hr more in pay rates. Many understand this because they leave UA/DL/AA for FDX constantly. Almost no one goes the other way. The other thing you’re forgetting is those Airlines bargained contracts after our 2015 contract. It seems you’re purposely leaving out the critical details. You do you which is obvious.

NoWork - I noticed you’re the second person today to throw out the ‘Scab’ word correlating it to persons who have flown extra. You act like you have such high integrity and are morally superior to everyone else, and yet you’ve by your own admission done the exact same thing, so evidently the rules only apply to everyone else - what a joke you are.

Anyone who knows anything knows what a Scab is … it isn’t even remotely close to what you’re insinuating, so don’t go twisting the definition for shock value. I’d also suggest being very careful when you start calling fellow pilots (if you even are a FedEx pilot as opposed to a troll in your parents basement) Scabs … Karma is a real thing.

I’d suggest to the moderators that anyone on here who calls someone a scab (or even insinuates they are) and can’t clearly prove that the person has crossed a picket line of pilots who are on strike should have their account suspended … starting with NoWork. That’s about as bad of a word as you can call an airline pilot … it shouldn’t be used lightly.

The hornets nest has been poked and the draft/ava defenders are swarming :D

Same names every time like clock work

The management stooges are on red alert!!!

I would venture to guess the same types are those who wouldn’t think twice about crossing that struck work line if premium pay was involved. They would claim “it’s my decision to do as such”… History proves this.

SOUND FAMILIAR???

The thought process and logic is all the same to them. Me first and F everyone else.

Moderators … Get rid of this clown NOW!

General Conduct

• Keep it professional.
  • Remember your manners when communicating with others.

• Harassment of any kind is not acceptable.
  • Do not shame, degrade, insult, bully, or otherwise call out others.

NoWork violates the APC conduct rules literally with every other post they make. Why is he allowed to do so with impunity? Enough already!

Heed your own statements! You and your group of defenders call names, claim others are not pilots and criticize other viewpoints. Sounds like you and your group has thin skin not others having unprofessional behavior. You meet the definitions you have provided above. You are literally “calling out” to have people removed for sharing reality. Your buddies are “calling out” that FDX pilots are “not FedEx pilots”. All those things meet the definition of unprofessional.

There's moderators here? This whole section is an embarrassment to our pilot group and frankly I’m sorry that I even participate because it devolves to crap like this. I originally made some posts to counter the same narrative that is pushed here but that’s a waste of time, clearly.
I’d delete my account if there was an option. I’ll just log off instead, have fun

Just use the ignore option for the "nowork" clown.

From the DL thread

“These posts aren’t helping us get a new contract. I keep turning down GS’s. The trips keep getting covered by junior pilots or senior pilots on GS#2. I don’t understand. When I go to work, my captains have all been wearing their hats up to this point. Most are not wearing green lanyards, but are wearing company or plain black lanyards. We haven’t closed out a section since February.

I’m guessing we won’t see a contract for years and our pilots are content with that. It is what it is.”

It seems like some understand the problem. Some act like they don’t. Industry wide problem. This is why we are seeing delayed negotiations throughout the industry and underwhelming extensions and TA proposals. Continue the same behaviors and we will continue to get the same results.

wow u are the problem. Guessing you don’t realize it and that’s how you justify “taking care of your family”.

no it doesn’t. Every major is in negotiations - if we wait until they all get theirs we will be around UPS2 (when they r up again in august of 2024). Who knows how long this “pilot shortage” will last or how the economy will continue for cargo. Now is the time.

UPS Union is way better than ALPA - better managed and better run. Much better structure and not beholden to DC like every group A carrier is. Doubt we will change but wish we would.

nah..they may have a big voice but it very rarely benefits us. About 1/2 of our dues goes to support the infrastructure (read salaries) of DC employees which very rarely benefit us (talk to some reps and see what kind of support they really get) and the regionals which can’t survive structurally in ALPA without a huge influx of cash. We often have opposing needs (see Middle East carrier controversy) and they definitely don’t have a great track record. For the few things they offer - they also offer it a La carte to non ALPA carriers (EF&A and grievance ) at a cost. We spend way too much time and money on natl BS - biggest discsssuon last MEC meeting wasn’t negotiations - it was BOD.

which resources do you speak of that other independent unions don’t have that are worth our dues?

no not really - ALPA always brags about the MCF which is virtually worthless to us - we will never actually be released to self help and this the MCF is only useable for a few minor events when our treasury gets so low and, they added for us, road shows during the member ratification period - that’s it. They offer no other resources to us that are USABLE that they don’t offer to other independent unions.

No MEC is beholden to anyone at National. If they are, then it’s because they choose to be.

Haven’t we tried an independent union before? How did that work out?

At least we got to directly vote for the President, VP, and Sec/Treasurer. We don't get that choice now.

Also, what good does the MCF from ALPA national do us, if they won't let us have any of it (2015) because "our" union is so corrupt they won't show them the books?

ALPA national only wants us for our money, plain and simple. What have they done about the "cargo cutout"? Oh, right, we don't really matter to them, now do we?

Uh no - they all are - we have no choice in the amount of dues we give or how those dues are spent - as a result very little comes back to us - a bit more than 50% total. We have very little choice (6000 votes out of the total - one vote here is the same as one vote at a Canadian regional) in how national policies and objectives are created. Those are two that just pop to mind.

maybe in a vacuum, yes. But you gotta wonder how many of these guys would love to work at National. So: they are on parade every time they have an interaction with anyone at National. I get what you’re saying, if they choose to be…but that begs the question, how many people that “volunteer” are actually selfless “volunteers”? We ***** about all the independent contractors but aren’t some of the union guys also independent contractors?

I’m all for a union. I’m complaining because I like the thought of someone who goes into an office in khakis, gets paid by US(the pilots), to send a few emails and get a free lunch reading this and feeling ashamed.

Lessons Learned at United
 

Not that I agree with any of that but it doesn’t refute anything I said. No MEC is EVER beholden to ANYONE at National. That is a fact. No one at National can tell our MEC what to negotiate, how to negotiate, how to handle management relations, what to grieve, what to send to arbitration, when to picket, how to communicate with pilots, etc. All workings of the MEC and its committees, LECs and their workings and committees are done at the direction of only those bodies. All that is fact.

As for Canadian regionals, last I checked, those 20 airlines have one EVP. The FDX MEC has one EVP all for itself. And I’m pretty sure our BOD members outnumber all their BOD members combined when it comes to 6000 pilots.

That’s a whole different issue. We have a pool of pilots we choose as leaders. Whether we choose good ones or not is not my point. But regardless of the letters in the name of the union, we will still choose from the same pool of pilots.




I wasn’t here but how did that work out for everyone? Seems like that union got democratically voted out. As for the MCF, if our mec decided not to use it when they should’ve, that’s a problem with the MEC members, not ALPA National or ALPA as a whole.

I think people get this wrong all the time. They blame ALPA, the organization, for the errors of someone specifically. Would have the exact same governing body made the same decision under the same circumstances if the letters on the door were FPA?

By the way, I’m all for “one level of safety.” But I’m certain that if ALPA National was successful in helping pass a bill that required us to operate under 117, many would be mad at ALPA for it.

"Not that I agree with any of that but it doesn’t refute anything I said. No MEC is EVER beholden to ANYONE at National. That is a fact. No one at National can tell our MEC what to negotiate, how to negotiate, how to handle management relations, what to grieve, what to send to arbitration, when to picket, how to communicate with pilots, etc. All workings of the MEC and its committees, LECs and their workings and committees are done at the direction of only those bodies. All that is fact"

It is also a fact that the signature of the ALPA national president is on our contract. Are you sure he does not have input, when he gets to sign off on it?

For example, some folks at ALPA don't want full per diem because it is not pensionable earnings. Another way of saying it doesn't generate dues. Full per diem would really add tax free dollars to the pay of all of our international flyers, but you watch, we will get nickels and dimes. No dues money from per diem, so no large per diem increases. Seems suspicious to me.

I think you understand most of the issue but not all of it.
1. National priorities are set by National - Fedex has exactly 6000 votes of the 60,000 votes or so - 1/10. Whereas UPS IPA priorities are set by UPS. We don't have to agree but if national wants to spend $2million from the MCF to help out a small Canadian regional or advocate for policies that may help pax carrier but hurt cargo carriers they can - every time. Just like if national wants to put little effort into stopping remotely operated cargo ops, they can - we get about 1/10 of the votes in that.
2. My point in BOD representation was that the entire FDX MEC represents far less than the entire regionals even though we give far more in dues money.
3. There's no doubt we n eed a union - the question for me is if Fedex pilots' interests are best served by being in ALPA or something else? Let's not compare how we were 24 years ago - we are completely different now. It's better to look at what the IPA lacks that ALPA offers - I'm not sure there's anything. If you have some examples, please list them.
4. We have exactly one EVP - there is exactly 1 EVP within ALPA that represents cargo - all the small cargo carriers share their one EVP with the far greater number of pilots in the smaller regionals. Cargo will also have a very small voice within ALPA - even when we have a former Fedex pilot at the head.

Lessons Learned at United
 

That’s the thing with constituencies. Just like in our MEC we have reps with differing priorities depending on them or their constituents’ demographics. That’s what you get when you have a democratic republic type of organization. In that type of governing structure, there will ALWAYS be compromises that are best in whole. Nothing different there when it comes to National or our own MEC.

Yes, the IPA, as a whole, does have one set of priorities (that was a compromise between their reps). But how much do they have in the form of influence where it counts? I have yet to see a representative invited to testify before congress from the IPA. Nor have I seen any IPA reps in advisory committees either. And even if they do eventually get on one, their influence will be directly proportional to the number of their members compared to ALPA.

Let me put it this way since you mentioned FDX being the only large cargo carrier in ALPA, what if IPA merged with ALPA? What would us pilots as a whole gain? Wouldn’t that be better than being independent and losing all influencing abilities, especially considering that national cannot affect our internal issues and how we decide to handle them? I mean, I would be all for changing the name of ALPA to IPA if it meant we are all in the same union. The letters don’t matter, it’s the people that matter. And when we unite, we have a bigger stronger voice. Each MEC is its own entity when it comes to their own company issues but come together when it comes to the piloting profession as a whole.



Show me the last time the president didn’t sign a contract or LOA? Maybe happened once 30 years or so ago. The president is required to follow the administrative manual when it comes to signing his name. As long as the MEC followed the administrative manual when it comes to the negotiation, he has no basis to not sign it. And the interpretation of any of that is not up to him, anyway. The EC has that power.

As for perdiem, like I said, absolutely positively no person at National can tell any MEC what to what not to negotiate for. I mean, they can say not to, but the MEC can laugh it off and ignore it.

I know an oak 767 FO. He’s been knocking out his month and picking up trips as Ava or draft. He said their union rep told them at oak base that as long as they didn’t fly more days than what was on their line then it was okay to do ava and draft. Such BS if that’s really happening. Supposedly most of the oak guys are doing it. We don’t have a chance if this is the attitude coming from our union reps. So disappointing.

Im all for flying my line. But I don’t see a problem with someone working the same amount of days at 150%. Isn’t that holding the company MORE accountable? I see the issue with flying extra. But if you conflict and then work to your BLG at 150% how is that helping the company? I’m seriously asking.

Because if they are drafting, they need that tripped filled now. They approved the conflicts/drops etc. because there is/was enough reserve coverage for those days. There isn't enough reserve coverage on days they're drafting/AVA. You're helping them out with scheduling problems by picking up draft/AVA. The company can afford to pay draft everyday. Monetarily we aren't going to put pressure on the company. It's putting pressure on them being able to fill seats because their oversight on keeping us manned properly..

I think you and I disagree as to the value of some of our supposed "influence". I'm not sure I've ever seen any action taken when the ALPA president testifies before Congress - nor do I believe that American, Southwest or UPS pilots were somehow disenfranchised because they didn't testify. When we have similar values those other independent unions gather just as much value (of which I think there is little if any) when ALPA testifies. I used to think there was value in all the synergy shared between ALPA NCs and specific value in things like ALPA's E&FA but then found out that ALPA regularly farms out their org for a la carte pricing to the independent unions - at a much less overall cost. The NCs actually meet well beyond just ALPA - they regularly meet and talk between all the different pilot unions.

No doubt there is compromise when you are part of a large org with various groups but I just don't see the value anymore. We have a lot less money available to spend out of our dues money compared to any of those independent unions - we also have incredibly less say in who we hire to man our office. You want some more lawyers even if you h ave the cash? Well that has to be approved by national and those lawyers come under the CBA of their employee group. You want o remove one or two of your weak staffers? Virtually impossible for the reason.

I completely agree that we are mostly left to our own on negotiations. We get next to zero value from our assigned national attorney - we succeed and fail on our own here at Kirby. The ALPA President will sign almost any CBA we put forth - that's not the issue. The issue is whether we are maximizing value to the Fedex pilot by being part of ALPA. I don't see it. Say you want to change our website or add an app for our members? Any idea how hard that is to do because of the walls ALPA has set up to protect their employees and their work product?

not sure I understand your comment about perdiem?

absolutely right - we continue to fly the highest amount of draft/vlt monthly in history - and it's more this year than it was last year believe it or not

Sorry for my ignorance but how do you know that?

my common sense meter says, don’t fly extra=seat manning issues.

fly at 150% up to BLG/days awarded=they still have a manning problem

difference is they pay a premium for it

I don’t think scheduling is looking past right now. Or flights that didn’t go from the day prior. If you fly a trip at draft and got it because you conflicted your whole month….guess what?! That trip you conflicted will likely be available at draft as well. Ava is almost always on. So you solve a near sided problem for them while creating one down line that isn’t even on there radar yet. Just don’t fly more than your BLG/work days. Better yet. Fly at draft but only 8 days instead of 12. Or is that also helping the company out too much?

that’s what I’m saying. If you fly 8 days at 150% it seems like that would be pressing the company harder than 12 at 100%.

The problem isn't the number of draft/ava hours being flown. By themselves those numbers don't state much about the manning levels. The problem is we have too many guys doing the work of 1.5, 2, or 3 pilots. Its not the people conflicting and flying at 150% that are undermining efforts to achieve a TA. Its Mr. "Capt/FO willing to extend" and the Blue man :rolleyes:group that are self dealing to the detriment of the group. We are contractually obligated to so many days. That should be the limit. NO ONE should be castigated for what they get paid on those days.


Let's stay focused.


The company will have to deal with us if we can just tell them NO. There is a labor shortage that isn't going to be resolved in the next 10 years. Automation won't save them nor will raising the retirement age. Anything that was true regarding the power dynamics between management and labor for the last 20 years is going to be upended going forward. No need to fear the NMB or capitulate because the RLA makes things hard. The numbers are on our side the baby boomers WILL exit the workforce. There aren't enough GEN Xer's to fill that gap and they did such a good job of marginalizing our profession that the pool of millennial candidates is abysmally small.

THERE IS A LABOR SUPPLY SHORTAGE

All the signs are there:

Carrier sponsored ab initio programs

Relaxed minimum flight hour requirements

Elimination of the College Degree

Cancelled flights


DECREASES IN SUPPLY DRIVE COSTS UP


All we must do is say NO! Not "I'll consider it", simply no. Then be a little patient.


Check out Peter Zeihan for more insights into the changing dynamics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT6HFCAFDgU&t=1033s

What this guy said

Exactly!!!

Drop for draft is ok? YGTBSM

Crew Scheduling is scrambling to cover an uncovered trip for tomorrow. They have coverage in 4 days from now to cover your original trip. You bail them out for greed reasons and some see this as ok because you worked the same amount of days? We are fucd.

Same goes for conflicting and then doing all draft/ava. You are bailing them out when they have no coverage. They could give two craps about paying the little extra money. They’re more worried about the revenue they would miss out on if that airplane doesn’t move or frustrating a customer. This is why pilots get played by management. They find a way to justify about anything. Even if it means it’s to the detriment of the group.

if you are actually a employee go look at the reserve manning. There is little coverage almost every day/night.

that voids your argument

No it doesn’t. Read the SIG notes. Certain seats and domiciles have good manning. Keep justifying and we will keep getting played. It’s our own faults as pilots.

Justifying drop and draft regardless of staffing is selfish and greedy.

Managment must be laughing at us currently saying “Throw some temporary money at the peasants and they will trip over themselves to fix our problems. No need to bargain on real pay and retirement fixes.”