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Originally Posted by Noworkallplay
(Post 3468599)
Drop for draft is ok? YGTBSM
Crew Scheduling is scrambling to cover an uncovered trip for tomorrow. They have coverage in 4 days from now to cover your original trip. You bail them out for greed reasons and some see this as ok because you worked the same amount of days? We are fucd. Same goes for conflicting and then doing all draft/ava. You are bailing them out when they have no coverage. They could give two craps about paying the little extra money. They’re more worried about the revenue they would miss out on if that airplane doesn’t move or frustrating a customer. This is why pilots get played by management. They find a way to justify about anything. Even if it means it’s to the detriment of the group. |
These arguments are specious and wrong. And I'm not gonna entertain folks besmirching people's character because in their opinion there's something wrong with improving your quality of life by swapping 1 hour for another. It is not remotely the same as working on a day off.
Anybody that knows me knows I'm the last dude who's working extra, contract negotiation or not. This level of nitpicking could be directed at anyone and if you've got any real evidence that trip trading is actually counter productive to negotiations go ahead and lay it out. Otherwise reserve that ire for those who deserve it. Besides I've made my position on these negotiations clear and where I'm coming down on a TA with any concessions in it and I'm happy to wait. |
Originally Posted by Shaman
(Post 3468896)
These arguments are specious and wrong. And I'm not gonna entertain folks besmirching people's character because in their opinion there's something wrong with improving your quality of life by swapping 1 hour for another. It is not remotely the same as working on a day off.
Anybody that knows me knows I'm the last dude who's working extra, contract negotiation or not. This level of nitpicking could be directed at anyone and if you've got any real evidence that trip trading is actually counter productive to negotiations go ahead and lay it out. Otherwise reserve that ire for those who deserve it. Besides I've made my position on these negotiations clear and where I'm coming down on a TA with any concessions in it and I'm happy to wait. All this chest thumping and pompous statements coming from someone doing ava/draft :D It must be great waiting for a new contract making 120+ hours a month. You are the problem! I will be laughing when a 56% contract passes. It’s because you’re group and those not doing draft/ava being feed up. |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 3468168)
I think you and I disagree as to the value of some of our supposed "influence". I'm not sure I've ever seen any action taken when the ALPA president testifies before Congress - nor do I believe that American, Southwest or UPS pilots were somehow disenfranchised because they didn't testify. When we have similar values those other independent unions gather just as much value (of which I think there is little if any) when ALPA testifies. I used to think there was value in all the synergy shared between ALPA NCs and specific value in things like ALPA's E&FA but then found out that ALPA regularly farms out their org for a la carte pricing to the independent unions - at a much less overall cost. The NCs actually meet well beyond just ALPA - they regularly meet and talk between all the different pilot unions.
No doubt there is compromise when you are part of a large org with various groups but I just don't see the value anymore. We have a lot less money available to spend out of our dues money compared to any of those independent unions - we also have incredibly less say in who we hire to man our office. You want some more lawyers even if you h ave the cash? Well that has to be approved by national and those lawyers come under the CBA of their employee group. You want o remove one or two of your weak staffers? Virtually impossible for the reason. I completely agree that we are mostly left to our own on negotiations. We get next to zero value from our assigned national attorney - we succeed and fail on our own here at Kirby. The ALPA President will sign almost any CBA we put forth - that's not the issue. The issue is whether we are maximizing value to the Fedex pilot by being part of ALPA. I don't see it. Say you want to change our website or add an app for our members? Any idea how hard that is to do because of the walls ALPA has set up to protect their employees and their work product? not sure I understand your comment about perdiem? Perdiem is a negotiated item on our contract. As you and I agree, we decide what to negotiate in our contract. So saying ALPA National doesn’t want perdiem raised because it not duesable income, makes no sense. As for the rest, let’s just say that in my experience within ALPA, I see the value. But then again, I’ve never been part of an independent union. My only other experience comes from a non-union air carrier. Last thing I’ll say, if you look at the minutes and resolutions of the EC, you’ll see that on every single meeting (every 2 months) they are all approving unanimously resolutions for specific things an MEC want, including MCF funds, of which I’m pretty sure FDX is approved. Anyway, good discussion. I believe that it’s easier/better to improve from within and keep the strength in numbers and money, especially the PAC, what politicians really care about when making decisions on what to support. |
[QUOTE=Noworkallplay;3468659]No it doesn’t. Read the SIG notes. Certain seats and domiciles have good manning. Keep justifying and we will keep getting played. It’s our own faults as pilots.
Justifying drop and draft regardless of staffing is selfish and greedy./QUOTE] There is at least one fleet that the SIG notes said was facing staffing challenges. People in that fleet conflicting their bid to drop flying are making this challenge even more difficult for the company. Conflicting a 13 day trip to turn around and AVA a 10 day trip is using the contract to squeeze the company even further and get paid more to do less. If the same person were to just fly their line and not bid to intentionally drop as much of their schedule as possible, they would be much more productive and it would be a whole lot easier for scheduling to predict manning and plan their staffing. Accepting a drop for draft when you drop a 5 day trip for a 10 day trip at draft is a whole different story. |
[QUOTE=Freighthumper;3469089]
Originally Posted by Noworkallplay
(Post 3468659)
No it doesn’t. Read the SIG notes. Certain seats and domiciles have good manning. Keep justifying and we will keep getting played. It’s our own faults as pilots.
Justifying drop and draft regardless of staffing is selfish and greedy./QUOTE] **gasp** someone gets it! There is at least one fleet that the SIG notes said was facing staffing challenges. People in that fleet conflicting their bid to drop flying are making this challenge even more difficult for the company. Conflicting a 13 day trip to turn around and AVA a 10 day trip is using the contract to squeeze the company even further and get paid more to do less. If the same person were to just fly their line and not bid to intentionally drop as much of their schedule as possible, they would be much more productive and it would be a whole lot easier for scheduling to predict manning and plan their staffing. Accepting a drop for draft when you drop a 5 day trip for a 10 day trip at draft is a whole different story. |
Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 3468995)
Perdiem is a negotiated item on our contract. As you and I agree, we decide what to negotiate in our contract. So saying ALPA National doesn’t want perdiem raised because it not duesable income, makes no sense.
As for the rest, let’s just say that in my experience within ALPA, I see the value. But then again, I’ve never been part of an independent union. My only other experience comes from a non-union air carrier. Last thing I’ll say, if you look at the minutes and resolutions of the EC, you’ll see that on every single meeting (every 2 months) they are all approving unanimously resolutions for specific things an MEC want, including MCF funds, of which I’m pretty sure FDX is approved. Anyway, good discussion. I believe that it’s easier/better to improve from within and keep the strength in numbers and money, especially the PAC, what politicians really care about when making decisions on what to support. yes we have a standard $5mil MCF grant approved - of which we will use zero except for TA road shows. The MCF has very little value for us - or the other A block carriers. It does have value for regionals. |
Originally Posted by 5millionaire
(Post 3468111)
Im all for flying my line. But I don’t see a problem with someone working the same amount of days at 150%. Isn’t that holding the company MORE accountable? I see the issue with flying extra. But if you conflict and then work to your BLG at 150% how is that helping the company? I’m seriously asking.
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Originally Posted by kwri10s
(Post 3469890)
Just fly your line. Not the same footprint of your line, not the same number of days as your line, just your line. If you have CIC conflict then you can pick up your makeup, but that's it. You do not have to take a hit on your pay unless you want to not pick up bidding conflict MU. Many don't. No AVA, no draft, no extensions. There is not pressure on the system every hour of every day. There is pressure here and there. We do not know where that is. It might be MEM departures on one day and total pilots in CDG another. It could be number of pilots turning IND or OAK, it could be 777 CLOE instructors or 767 training instructors, we don't know what the issues are day to day. IF you fly your line then the pressure will show up where it needs to show up, when it needs to show up and we all know the system cannot be flown without a significant portion of the pilots doing extra. All we are asking is to be compensated for our sacrifice and efforts. Just do your job. If you are rationalizing what you are doing then you already know your buddies would say you are wrong. Wear your negotiation lanyard and stop talking to those that cannot be bothered to show they support the other pilots by wearing theirs. Feel free to fight amongst ourselves on whether or not the negotiating team will get us what we want, but your public face and flying schedule needs to be full support.
Cheers, fbh |
Originally Posted by 5millionaire
(Post 3465754)
can you comment on why be part of ALPA?
Folks, now is the time to let your LEC reps know that they need to actively oppose Todd Insler at the national level. It is going to take every ALPA airline actively opposing him or we are all going to get the impotent, self-serving representation that UA pilots have had. |
Originally Posted by Merle Haggard
(Post 3469929)
If Todd Insler (the UA MEC chair who unilaterally rammed himself into three consecutive terms in violation of their bylaws) is elected to be the ALPA national president, then we SHOULD NOT remain an ALPA member.
Folks, now is the time to let your LEC reps know that they need to actively oppose Todd Insler at the national level. It is going to take every ALPA airline actively opposing him or we are all going to get the impotent, self-serving representation that UA pilots have had. |
Originally Posted by kwri10s
(Post 3469890)
Just fly your line. Not the same footprint of your line, not the same number of days as your line, just your line. If you have CIC conflict then you can pick up your makeup, but that's it. You do not have to take a hit on your pay unless you want to not pick up bidding conflict MU. Many don't. No AVA, no draft, no extensions. There is not pressure on the system every hour of every day. There is pressure here and there. We do not know where that is. It might be MEM departures on one day and total pilots in CDG another. It could be number of pilots turning IND or OAK, it could be 777 CLOE instructors or 767 training instructors, we don't know what the issues are day to day. IF you fly your line then the pressure will show up where it needs to show up, when it needs to show up and we all know the system cannot be flown without a significant portion of the pilots doing extra. All we are asking is to be compensated for our sacrifice and efforts. Just do your job. If you are rationalizing what you are doing then you already know your buddies would say you are wrong. Wear your negotiation lanyard and stop talking to those that cannot be bothered to show they support the other pilots by wearing theirs. Feel free to fight amongst ourselves on whether or not the negotiating team will get us what we want, but your public face and flying schedule needs to be full support.
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Lessons Learned at United
Originally Posted by BertMacklinFBI
(Post 3470077)
sorry. If I’m gonna pick up 30 hour trip to complete my line due to conflict. I’m doing it at 150. Preferably 20 hours at 150. Every single trip in opentime, can go at 150. No need to be a sucker and fly it at straight time.
So anyone who doesn’t fly any trips at 150 is a sucker? Should every single pilot only fly at 150 to not be a sucker? |
Originally Posted by BertMacklinFBI
(Post 3470077)
sorry. If I’m gonna pick up 30 hour trip to complete my line due to conflict. I’m doing it at 150. Preferably 20 hours at 150. Every single trip in opentime, can go at 150. No need to be a sucker and fly it at straight time.
While you’re out getting yours, there’s a huge percentage of us that won’t be doing extra and haven’t since May of ‘21. We’d love for you to join us. But you’ve gotta reach that conclusion on your own. |
If I need to pick up 30 hours of flying to cover a conflict drop, convince me why I should do it at straight time. You could really twist the screws to em and just conflict and get no pay! That’ll teach em!
For example, I can pick the trip up 8 days in advance. Or I can wait one day and get 150% and fly less days. No. I don’t think you’re a sucker. I was being jovial. The problem, in my opinion, lies with people flying past min days off or calling/willing to extend forever. I think working less at premium is more trouble for the company as you are giving them less of your time. Yes. You help them in the short term. But it’s just kicking the can down the road. Draft/VLT is available nearly all the time (on some fleets). |
Originally Posted by BertMacklinFBI
(Post 3470217)
If I need to pick up 30 hours of flying to cover a conflict drop, convince me why I should do it at straight time. You could really twist the screws to em and just conflict and get no pay! That’ll teach em!
For example, I can pick the trip up 8 days in advance. Or I can wait one day and get 150% and fly less days. No. I don’t think you’re a sucker. I was being jovial. The problem, in my opinion, lies with people flying past min days off or calling/willing to extend forever. I think working less at premium is more trouble for the company as you are giving them less of your time. Yes. You help them in the short term. But it’s just kicking the can down the road. Draft/VLT is available nearly all the time (on some fleets). Please ignore those selling the "fly your schedule" mantra. You can make your schedule whatever you need it to be as long as you're flying the same number of days. Maybe these guys just need it to be a one size fits all policy because anything more complicated than that is just too hard for their comprehension. |
Originally Posted by BertMacklinFBI
(Post 3470097)
No soup for you. I agree. Ridiculous that they can all of a sudden impose this. The union is doing nothing about it. Submitted a dart, no actionable response. Just another roll over.
Originally Posted by BertMacklinFBI
(Post 3470217)
If I need to pick up 30 hours of flying to cover a conflict drop, convince me why I should do it at straight time. You could really twist the screws to em and just conflict and get no pay! That’ll teach em!
For example, I can pick the trip up 8 days in advance. Or I can wait one day and get 150% and fly less days. No. I don’t think you’re a sucker. I was being jovial. The problem, in my opinion, lies with people flying past min days off or calling/willing to extend forever. I think working less at premium is more trouble for the company as you are giving them less of your time. Yes. You help them in the short term. But it’s just kicking the can down the road. Draft/VLT is available nearly all the time (on some fleets). Using your logic, it is fine to extend a 5 day trip into 13 days and get paid 200% for most of the trip. You could be working less days and getting paid more. It only is helping the company in the short term. Any other rules of what is ok and not? Bottom line is the contract allows pilots to fly draft. It is an individual decision until we are released to self help. If you feel the need to justify your actions, maybe you should rethink those actions. |
This comes down to tribal politics from my perspective. Everyone agrees to just fly basic days (15 days/19 days) during the bid month. Then it splits into the "math/logic" tribe vs the "this is what I've always done" tribe. Never shall the two find common ground, although they both agree on the basic premise of flying only the basic days per month. No amount of autistic internet screeching will convince the other tribe to change positions. Funny part is, both tribes are performing nearly the same maneuver, while only emphasizing the difference in technique.
Just show me a TA; I'll evaluate its merits. Until then, my coworkers do not get a vote in how I orchestrate my family balance for the month. Nor do I hunt down other pilot's calendars to see what they're doing. Call me a heretic; I just go to work and try to keep the political ranting at bay. |
Just me, but when I'm conflicting a trip (or get Bumped for Training), I'm enjoying my time off.
Shoot, past 2 months I've dropped\given away about 40CHs. Barring a year 1 or 2 employment longevity, if you can't live on 50% of your BLG....you've got a spending problem and you're truly not ready for Contract Negotiations. If you're going insane over the recent inflation levels and the fact that we're not perusing a TA yet (May was the goal, which is what, 6 months past our amendable date?) Then you're truly not ready for Contract Negotiations. Is your personal goal a Fast TA or the Right TA? A TA will eventually happen. And when it does, please, please....read it, think about it. Take the time to search out the Pros and Cons. Consider the things that will have improved as well as the things that didn't change (or perhaps even declined, International Hotel $$ worsened in TA2015. Some of the old Subic guys were frequent visitors of Vacation Destinations on Company $$. Something that only increased in frequency when HKG opened up. And that was something the Company went after. It's one thing to pay for a few people to hit a 5 star resort, another when lot's of people do so) |
Originally Posted by Merle Haggard
(Post 3469929)
If Todd Insler (the UA MEC chair who unilaterally rammed himself into three consecutive terms in violation of their bylaws) is elected to be the ALPA national president, then we SHOULD NOT remain an ALPA member.
Folks, now is the time to let your LEC reps know that they need to actively oppose Todd Insler at the national level. It is going to take every ALPA airline actively opposing him or we are all going to get the impotent, self-serving representation that UA pilots have had.
Originally Posted by HvypurplePylot
(Post 3469992)
I agree and have already let them know.
I wrote my LEC reps last night. Seriously folks, if you want a lesson learned from United it's this: DO NOT allow Todd Insler to become ALPA president (unless you want the United $H!tshow to become our $H!tshow). Their The UA MEC chairman was as cozy with management as anyone I've seen in 25yrs as an airline pilot. Gave away tons of scope, quality of life, and money -- all outside of bankruptcy. Write your reps or we may have an airline CEO wannabe as our national representative. |
Originally Posted by Shaman
(Post 3470231)
This is nonsense. These guys are arguing making more money for the same hours is helping the company. Its a stupid argument. The fact is that the Company is understaffed that's the problem and that is a MANHOURS problem. It is only resolved by someone flying EXTRA DAYS. What you get paid for BLG hours is not relevant and I'm still waiting for someone to adequately explain how it is.
Please ignore those selling the "fly your schedule" mantra. You can make your schedule whatever you need it to be as long as you're flying the same number of days. Maybe these guys just need it to be a one size fits all policy because anything more complicated than that is just too hard for their comprehension. I’m not here to tell you what to do or not do. As long as it’s allowed in the contract, who am I to tell you, you can’t do it. But from what I understand of this situation is, imagine this: You have a trip at the middle of the month. And scheduling has an open trip earlier in the month that needs to be covered. They see that the reserve coverage is not enough at the beginning of the month but really good in the middle. So they call you to solicit drop for draft. You say yes, they solve their manning problem and you get paid more for flying the same amount of days. Great. If you say no, then what happens? The manning problem is not solved. Does it help us to help them when trying to negotiate for something better? Or can our behavior be used as leverage? The answer is a double edged sword. Which is why no one should ever tell anyone what to do or not to do. But it’s undeniable that behavior is leverage here. So what I’m understanding is that we can help them solve their manning problem now. Or we can help them solve it later with a better contract, and presumably way better pay rates. You do you. I will never tell you or anyone they cannot take advantage of what the union negotiated in the current contract. Im of the mind that they should negotiate something that has a trigger at amendable date so that we are not enticed with these manning solving tactics during negotiations. Anyway, that’s the way I understand the argument against drop for draft or any other sort of creative schedule manipulation tactics. |
So in addition to posting on APC, can somebody tell me what they do when they’re “enjoying my time off.”
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