Lessons Learned at United
 

This is a copy from the UA board. A slightly different set of circumstances however the same narrative at our property. I warned ya.

“Pre merger there would have been ZERO United pilots picking up any trips during negotiations. If they had their schedules would have been posted behind the glass of the ALPA message boards for all to see. Now we have a new group of pilots bragging about how they get 140 hours of pay every month and fly down to 10 days off and the TA will hurt their chances to keep flying as much as possible on their days off.

That is the reason we have the current TA. We don’t need improvements to reserve, etc because the company knows they can just add some PP and guys are falling all over themselves to grab those trips, even complaining when they can’t fly OT.

You can blame the NC all you want but this pilot group’s daily actions are the blame.”

Preach!
 

Yes! Bump this and keep it at the top. Everyone out there with the colorful calendars and "willing to extend" in the notes on their trip pairing are buddy f&*%ers. They should all eat alone at layovers and be treated like lepers. They are 100% the reason contracts take a long time here. Independent contractors. F em.

For every trip they pick up, I drop two. It will never be enough. I want a better contract and will reap the benefits after we vote it in.

This being my first contract negotiations at Purple, I am floored at the number of pilots in every fleet and both seats who think that "fly your schedule" is a mantra that doesn't apply to them.

I have flown with numerous Capts and jumpseaters who are proudly talking about their open time trips and how much of that sweet sweet DRF they're getting.

It's pathetic really. Glad you get it, hopefully more of us will spread our displeasure with those that don't care.

This is my 3rd contract here, and nothings changed. Yawn. I say take care of yourself and your family, do whatever you feel you need to do. Everyone else is and you’re right, they’re bragging about how much extra theyre doing. , no shame, no humility, hence no contract. The extra flying will eventually dry up and they’ll all complain about our sh!tty TA when we get it. Bottom line, You gotta be able to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the day though.

Isn’t that the mentality of the pilots he is referring to?

BUT BUT BUT the draft street corner workers blame everyone else just months ago. Now we are realizing the real problem is the greed within the crew force dating back 30 years…..

Leadership starts from the top. When the Captains I fly with brag about he AVA and DFT they get…the newhires see it and they are gonna act accordingly. However, if they said, we’re in negations, fly your line. And if they frowned upon and mentored their crews about the task at hand, then others would fall in line, we’d be better off as a whole. But they don’t. They’re proud to show pictures of their Porsches, Indian motorcycles, brand new avionics or paint jobs of their airplanes (plural) , I was an MD FO last time and rumor has it WE FOs held the line and brought the company to its knees. This contract, I don’t see it.

That last contract made me realize we all are independent contractors, and I’m not gonna get played again. I even remember standing at the computer and a JSing CA had the balls to call CRS, right in front of everybody, and asked, “ Hello, I’m JSing out, but am available if you need me.” I mean cmon!!! Atleast go outside and call!!!

We get the contract we deserve. Period.

We have pilots making over a million a year, CRS have their gotos on speed dial ( out of seniority order mind you), what kinda contract do you expect?

We are now finding out who many of these notorious negative Nancy posters are. DRAFT WHOR@&. Self serving babies. Yet many throw stones at those not doing draft and volunteering trying to make a difference and change that selfish culture. We now see who these types are.

Be part of the CHANGE. Some of us are not doing draft/AVA. MD-11 FO didn’t “bring the company to their knees” anymore than the cancellations going on now. Same song and dance. A few different actors this time.

To be clear it was the ANC MD FOs that held the line.

Don't forget the 777 FO's in 2015.

I hear OAK base is holding the line 🙄

I’m one to fly my BLG every month, and think all the wh0re$ out there can’t be helping….BUT…doesn’t it make sense we get our contract AFTER all the other airlines?! With pattern bargaining, it’s our turn to go after them (at least DAL and UA).

I guess my point is, if you were calling the shots, would you want a new contract right now or maybe wait a few extra months and get something better?

Given the recent proposals from United and American, I don’t think we can count on them to move the needle in any of our focused areas. Negligible pay increases that don’t pass the inflation test along with virtually no improvements to retirement from either carrier. And given their specific financial situations over the last couple years, I don’t expect them to raise the bar this time around anyway.

Certainly wasn’t the CAs at any base…but hey, least I get tossed a few beers and maybe a dinner once in a while. New avionics in their airplanes are expensive, I get it.

Good points. Except they haven’t gotten a real TA yet…

UA got a real TA, then got screwed by their MEC when they were about to shoot it down hard. Now they're going to get a 50+1 TA

yea I’m playing devils advocate. Just posing the question…what’s better a contract ASAP or one that comes after DAL…can’t say their’s is going to be crap until it is, and the membership votes yes.

Lessons Learned at United
 

If pax carriers get crappy TA’s the company will insist on indexing our numbers to theirs. If they get eye-watering numbers the company will deny that we’re playing the same sport. We need to do our own heavy lifting and stop waiting for someone else to raise the bar for us.


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Based on the behavior and actions of our pilot group we better be happy with just pay parity to the industry. We have shown that most are subcontractors and self serving individuals. They show no ability to add leverage. We are on course to get played again with short term draft/AVA until the economy turns a corner into a downward spiral. No one to blame but ourselves. No Unity or willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of the profession or our pilot group. Even when it’s clear we have been asked for months to step up and do our part.

Ask yourself this. Once the economy slows, draft/ava dries up and staffing is caught up what leverage is left?

Answer: None

We are missing the boat as it pulls out of the harbor.

Than why are we part of ALPA? Sounds like we should team up with Browns union

Sounds like being part of ALPA is pointless than. Let’s team up with Browns union

Have you taken any time to look at the details of the last two UPS extensions? Their pay rates are lower than those proposed in the united TA. They raised their pension plan by a marginal amount and it takes almost 4 more years to hit an annual benefit of 138k annually. You have to be able to do 30 years of service though to get that Max benefit. UPS took 5 years to get there last contract. Shortly after FDX got a contract in 2015 UPS then got a contract. So should we wait 1-2 more years to get a contract if that’s how long it takes another major airline to get a contract? What if the contract they get actually hurts our position?

The union you are a part of isn’t the magic sauce. It’s the leverage your pilot group provides.

Got it. So if it was up to you:

contract ASAP, and take an “industry leading contract” until DAL one ups is, like last contact.

A few dollars more on a hourly pay rate isn’t an entire contract. In fact your hourly pay rate is a portion of your total w2 compensation. They will never come close on our retirement either. And we haven’t even begun talking about vacation and PBS and the inability to conflict. All of those things add to your W-2 but are not pay rates. I hope pilots are not so shortsided that all they do is stare at an hourly pay rate. That is exactly what management would want you to do while they gut the rest of your soft pay and work rules/retirement/bidding (pbs)/vacation

How about the company agreeing to pay us $450/hour for our max widebody pay rate but you have to give up your pension, vacation and implement PBS? Would you take it since hourly pay rates are so important to you?

Delta didn’t one up us by the way. Our total compensation is substantially higher. Even under this current contract. I was previously at another legacy…..

Im all about looking at details. I understand a holistic contract concept. There are other parts of DALs contract that beat ours, ahem, profit sharing and cash over cap.

I’m again, playing devils advocate. Why be part of ALPA if we are just helping all the other carriers? Why not form a union for us and Brown?

Also, I’m not against getting a contract right now. I’m posing the question.

They are good questions and hopefully I had some valuable answers. As others have said if we get a great contract it floats all boats. The FDX contract in 2015 did just that. It didn’t get the retirement piece solved but at the time it crushed everyone else’s pay to include work rules and soft pay. We are still industry top in vacation and retirement (probably now tied with brown on retirement depending on age).

Remember cash over cap only comes in to play if you exceed the cap. If most of your career is spent in a narrow body airplane and you don’t exceed or marginally exceed the cap what value is it? Does this force you to work harder to try to achieve a benefit? Profit sharing is only as good as the companies profit. How about guaranteed money instead of variable money based on things you don’t control? Covid and a digression in the economy are proving tough on any value to profit sharing for years.

can you comment on why be part of ALPA?

Someone else is probably better suited for that question. Some things that initially come to mind. 1) They have a big voice in DC. 2) Track record of industry leading contracts. Like I said earlier I'm not stuck on the name of the union since it’s only as strong as the pilot group. Isn’t American trying to go back to ALPA? Makes you wonder why

Think that UAL was in bankruptcy, close to liquidation and hated by its customers…….I remember it well, was always glad they didn’t hire me.

Are you guys at purple or do you work for ALPA?

Nope - he is a troll, not at purple, blocked by many, and you keep quoting him so we are forced to see his posts

noted


trolls everywhere!

I would encourage you to read USMC’s post. Any time someone disagrees with him he says they are not FedEx pilots. I have been at another legacy airline so I think I have a fairly good perspective on the industry. Many friends/relatives who have been around FDX for a LONG time. Some retired for years. What did I say to you that was trollish? I tried to add perspective and reality to what other airlines have/don’t have and what we have. The other big point I made was a union is only as strong as the ENTIRE pilot group. If thats trollish then some people need thicker skin. Is the point of forums for everyone to always think the same way? Good luck on that with a bunch of pilots. The only people who block other posters are those who only want to hear themselves talk.

I’m guessing you’re at UA. Otherwise why be in a FedEx thread.

No I use to be at another legacy. Im at FDX.

Becauae the resources that ALPA provides are worth the dues. We are only as strong as our individual membership makes our association. The IPA has less than 3000 pilots, don't think they are going to welcome twice that number of un-unified FedEx pilots just looking for an alternative. At the end of the day the volunteers and unity of the pilot group makes a strong union. We as FDX ALPA are some of the most un-unified pilots in the industry and thus we are weak. That has nothing to do with the leadership and everything to do with the "independent contractors" that work here.