4a.2.b/c
 

It is unconscionable and frankly stupid to me that we repeatedly agree to this clause without any qualifications. I am quite sure that the ever-present "intent" of 4.a.2.b. was to help the cause in the event of a force majeure event like 9-11, a war, a natural disaster, etc. How has it become a fallback for management to backtrack on poor decision making or changing their minds about strategy, or just being bent over by activists? It should really be tied to a certain number of consecutive unprofitable quarters or some other metric that proves that the management is in a corner. Invoking 4.a.2.c. while profitable is ludicrous and we need to tighten that $h!t up in TA 2.0.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

amen brother

Exactly. Express made over $1 billion in operating income in FY 2023. In Q4 (ending May 31 of this year), they made $430 million at 4.1% operating margin. To be threatening furloughs right now is almost comical.

excellent perspective

FedEx isn’t.

ALPA IS!

Ya but the NC has the inside info on what the company will do if the TA is voted down. ALPA at the regional level has more balls than FX ALPA. What a joke.

That has been exactly my experience.

Too bad you’re not a Fedex pilot. We may need some people to fill some MEC positions.

ALPA leadership at FedEx is an absolute joke. May and Norman should be ashamed at themselves for providing a concessionary industry worst divisive contract then essentially threatening probationary ALPA members with a furlough who don’t even have a vote in the matter. How it is not a complete conflict of interest to have 2/4 of the major players in this negotiation retiring very soon while trying to negotiate an increased pension at the last minute is beyond me.

As someone who would absolutely be furloughed in the event of a furlough DO NOT vote yes for this because of the fear inducing slander these boobs are regurgitating. Those of us on the so called chopping block IF that were to happen would land just fine with every passenger carrier on earth hiring and regional airlines offering 100k signing bonuses and direct entry captain positions with longevity honored. Try me

Fedex has been nothing short of a disappointment for me so far and a long ways away from the bs that was spoken to us during indoc by management pilots about the best job in the world, how much money we are going to make, hiring 7000 pilots…

before you tell me to leave I can promise you I’m looking at all options and very seriously considering it

But we have PFC! And VIPS!! No other airline can afford you such early 2000s tech.

Isn't it nice that if you stay you may have to endure at least 6 years of this TA and you probably get no vote (not sure when you were hired) vs. the guy who retires in 1 year who gets full voting privileges. It doesn't matter that you are previous ALPA. Tough pill to swallow.

I regret that I'm well beyond V1 as far as dumping this place and yet have a way to go until retirement. If leaving here is feasible for you, that'd be my advice. All that said, I WILL NOT sit here lowering the bar and accepting mediocrity - they will have to claw every nickel out of me at great pain. I will not vote to cut my own throat.

It appears that management is dead-set on taking us down the path of pain. Let's not go easily.

I hope cooler, and more ethical, heads prevail and this becomes the place you were promised it is. It used to be that place. Sadly, our MEC has done nothing to defend what was the best job in the industry.

What does income have to do with furloughs? If they're making that income in a system form needing X number of pilots and they have X+800, then that's all the reason they need to furlough. That's what happens at pax carriers. Demand goes down (doesn't matter if it's self loading cargo or freight), profits may continue at a lower level or they may go into the red. Just because pax carriers are typically losing money when they furlough doesn't have any bearing on our situation. The bottom line is that furlough is used when there isn't a way to gainfully employ a portion of the workforce - period. Corporation income has nothing to do with it. Very likely we'll continue to turn a profit, as usual. What do you think is going to happen - the company is going to use their income to subsidize 700-800 pilots they won't need for the foreseeable future?
TA fail or pass, I don't think the predicted exodus of retirements is a likely outcome. Pass - pilots who can will stay around to max out their A-fund bump and make all they can at the new, higher pay rates. Fail - those who can will stick around hoping for a TA 2.0 bump before they get shown the door. Then there's also the Age 67 factor too.

Hahahah. “The new TA will offset the depressed wages caused by 4a2b” Norman the fearless leader. I wouldn’t follow this guy into battle if the opposition was using nerf guns. It would be nice if the MEC had this level of communication during negotiations instead of after the fact when they find out people aren’t happy with the concessionary deal they signed with industry last pay rates. You know what would help even more with the depressed wages caused by 4a2b industry leading pay rates how about that…

I’m no expert by any means but I’ve read articles about previous negotiations and it seems like this playbook has been used every time to scare us into a bad deal. it’s sad it’s coming from our own union instead of just letting the group vote according to the merits of the contract.

Our MEC Chair could not be more out of touch if he was "Leroy Jenkins" himself. In his message today he says:

"The Union has never stated that there would or would not be furloughs. "

If that was true, how does he explain the "RATFIED" slide presented by the NC during the LAX roadshow?


The desperation being shown by union leadership is off the charts. Sadly This TA is not selling itself.

As someone who would also be on the chopping block I 100% agree. Please DO NOT vote yes thinking you’re doing us a favor. At the end of the day, the company is going to do what they want regardless of the outcome. But, the company hasn’t mentioned furlough at all, this has all come from the union.

Why would the union, the pilot group, the company, or the junior 700 want to take a substandard contract to hang on to a $h!tty flying job to make 54 hrs/month? Nobody benefits from this approach. This will be the contract that is the starting point for the next. We will be behind forever. This is like agreeing to compete in a race that you've already been guaranteed to lose.

Voting this in is a vain and unenforceable attempt to keep junior jobs that will make jobs them not worth keeping. The company is not obligated to do anything differently (other than tiny tweaks to SAM which really don't have much to do with furlough) under the TA.

The MEC has taken virtual hostages. Let's not make real concessions.

Bring overstaffed is a singular current event created by FDX management. This TA will be with us many years. The CBA is not a tool to address manning. Full stop.
Just let us vote.

I was suggesting that the sky is not falling. Furlough has huge implications for the company and a hit to the brand. There are options for the company to use in our current CBA before furlough that clearly the union hasn’t even discussed with them.

We have a winner!

Concerns over brand with regards to furlough doesn't seem to big a big concern to management. Their focus seems to be on shareholders and stock buy-back. As far as the CBA options, there's not a whole lot of discussion needed. That's why they're in the CBA. It's already been discussed and agreed upon. If and when the SAM hits the appropriate triggers, the 4A2b and 4A2c provisions will likely be invoked. There are specifics things for the company and the Association to discuss at that point - which is "before furlough". As the MEC chair said in his message today, "the company doesn't share its plans for the over staffing". So until CBA triggers are met, I'm not sure what it is you're expecting ALPA to discuss with the company.

Bingo, winner winner chicken dinner.

Whoops, I guess I should not say that with the new lawyer who pretends to be a CFO

I’m expecting to union to not act like the company will furlough if they have no idea what the company plans to do.

what will John Dietrich do?

C. Incentive Plan
The Company may, at its option, elect to avoid or mitigate a furlough by offering pilots or a specific group of pilots (using age or seniority, unless the Association consents to an alternate selection criteria) voluntary early retirement and/or severance package. If made to a specific group of pilots, any offer shall be made on a uniform and non-discriminatory basis . The Company shall notify, meet and consult with the Association prior to making any offer pursuant to this paragraph .

or

Furlough

If I get furloughed, I get furloughed, sucks but I'm not worried about it.

What I am worried about is what he's going to do when I'm on furlough, and I'm willing to bet that involves a ton of third party lift.

Shhh, no fear mongering is allowed!

Probation should be 12 months
 

Probation should end after 365 days from DOH. If FedEx wants to waste money and time taking 4 months to get someone through training that's not our problem. Once you become a line pilot (passed your IOE ride) you should probably get to have a vote. Is this an ALPA policy or company driven that you can't vote until probation is over? Certainly that person has more at stake, if anything.

It’s a FedEx policy. Delta’s probation ends at 6 months.

This is not from a source. It will be proven that our ALPA/MEC/NC knew over a year ago what the company's plans are. The bank accounts linked together by everyone in the Union and Pilot management will come to light if this TA were to pass. Why do you think a big change in management is coming up. Yes if you want to say this is a lie go ahead but these two comments will be proven. This is not from a guy I know who knows a guy who knows a guy.

You are awesome!! You are literally implicating our union leadership in collusion with management and getting a payoff? Please, back on the meds.

Everything is negotiable in a CBA.

Is DL's 6 months from DOH or from passing the LOE (I believe they call that 44X?)

At 400 hours

Theyre not the only one that thinks this. Most of my friend group here thinks the same thing. Occam’s razor.

There is no implicating here and you Stan will have to campaign to remove my comments. I will not delete them and.these comments will only be proven. The 2015 contract resulted in many going to management or the Union starting consultation businesses.

Are you that far removed from reality or are you just a great follower.

At 400 hours inclusive of OE or 1 year from passing 44X.

1 year or 400 hours. About 6 months.

Probation used to end at 1 year on property. However, our NC gave that up in 2015 in exchange for 1 year from activation, with nothing to show for it other than "we agree with the company's request".

2015 issues almost seem insignificant when compared to what our NC is trying to give away in this TA now.

Oh yeah, there’s nooo way anybody would ever go the full year…