Why I changed my vote...
07-23-2023, 06:21 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2021
Posts: 160
Originally Posted by HercMasterJ
As someone who voted no the first ten seconds the vote opened up, I've come to a new understanding.
Here’s what I’ve concluded. Our compensation package is not only about pay rate but more heavily weighted towards retirement—far more than any other airline. Our total compensation per pilot exceeds any other airline by far…it might not in pay rate, but the total value of the package is industry leading. If we turn this down now, we may get an increase in pay rate, but the total compensation I doubt would grow very much, if any…especially if the NMB has any say, and they do. Our back pay per month, exceeds all other airlines…that’s what the NMB is looking at and they won’t push for any more from the company. If we go for a TA2, we will never capture the lost investment dollars, ever, and that’s because our compensation is so heavily retirement weighed. Yeah, this TA is not what I wanted, but this is where we are. We’re screwed…. TA2 can possibly put more monthly pay in our pockets, but it’d come out of retirement…and even if it didn’t, we’d never capture the interest lost—effecting the younger guys on the property the most.
I don't feel that this TA will reduce my quality of life. I'll accept the incremental improvements and pocket the cash...after all, this is all why we are here, to make money. This is a business decision.
Here’s what I’ve concluded. Our compensation package is not only about pay rate but more heavily weighted towards retirement—far more than any other airline. Our total compensation per pilot exceeds any other airline by far…it might not in pay rate, but the total value of the package is industry leading. If we turn this down now, we may get an increase in pay rate, but the total compensation I doubt would grow very much, if any…especially if the NMB has any say, and they do. Our back pay per month, exceeds all other airlines…that’s what the NMB is looking at and they won’t push for any more from the company. If we go for a TA2, we will never capture the lost investment dollars, ever, and that’s because our compensation is so heavily retirement weighed. Yeah, this TA is not what I wanted, but this is where we are. We’re screwed…. TA2 can possibly put more monthly pay in our pockets, but it’d come out of retirement…and even if it didn’t, we’d never capture the interest lost—effecting the younger guys on the property the most.
I don't feel that this TA will reduce my quality of life. I'll accept the incremental improvements and pocket the cash...after all, this is all why we are here, to make money. This is a business decision.
07-23-2023, 06:32 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by HercMasterJ
No, I don't. I'm no expert, but I've listened to the MEC repeatedly and they say time and time again, that wet leasing costs the company 2x more money and it's not a sustainable business model. It's really only sustainable in a boom market when we're leaving freight behind on the ramp.
If they are so sure about it, why can’t they relay that info to us?
I don’t believe that 2x to be factual and it has only been backed up by we were told by the company it is 2x expensive. Maybe I missed that detailed calculation in all the Union comms, can you show where one can find the calculation?
It is not too late to change but respect your vote and we will need all of us when this is voted down in a few hours.
what time is it! NO is the time!
07-23-2023, 06:36 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: MD-88 FO
Posts: 1,558
Originally Posted by Yuko
On those same comms they have been asked to show how it is 2x expensive and have never revealed the calculations.
If they are so sure about it, why can’t they relay that info to us?
I don’t believe that 2x to be factual and it has only been backed up by we were told by the company it is 2x expensive. Maybe I missed that detailed calculation in all the Union comms, can you show where one can find the calculation?
It is not too late to change but respect your vote and we will need all of us when this is voted down in a few hours.
what time is it! NO is the time!
If they are so sure about it, why can’t they relay that info to us?
I don’t believe that 2x to be factual and it has only been backed up by we were told by the company it is 2x expensive. Maybe I missed that detailed calculation in all the Union comms, can you show where one can find the calculation?
It is not too late to change but respect your vote and we will need all of us when this is voted down in a few hours.
what time is it! NO is the time!
07-23-2023, 06:43 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 616
so here’s a guy who comes out at the last minute, right before the vote closes, to demonstrate how reasonable it is to capitulate, acknowledging that the TA is a turd, how we all got screwed, and how we’ll only get screwed harder if we vote no!
this clown, a reactionary no voter, came to jesus, and has seen the light, hallelujah! it’s now a simple business decision, the same tired mentality that eats away at our QOL for an inflationary pay hike.
its weak, and sad, and quite shameful. mostly weak.
this clown, a reactionary no voter, came to jesus, and has seen the light, hallelujah! it’s now a simple business decision, the same tired mentality that eats away at our QOL for an inflationary pay hike.
its weak, and sad, and quite shameful. mostly weak.
07-23-2023, 06:49 PM
#15
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by Yuko
On those same comms they have been asked to show how it is 2x expensive and have never revealed the calculations.
If they are so sure about it, why can’t they relay that info to us?
I don’t believe that 2x to be factual and it has only been backed up by we were told by the company it is 2x expensive. Maybe I missed that detailed calculation in all the Union comms, can you show where one can find the calculation?
It is not too late to change but respect your vote and we will need all of us when this is voted down in a few hours.
what time is it! NO is the time!
If they are so sure about it, why can’t they relay that info to us?
I don’t believe that 2x to be factual and it has only been backed up by we were told by the company it is 2x expensive. Maybe I missed that detailed calculation in all the Union comms, can you show where one can find the calculation?
It is not too late to change but respect your vote and we will need all of us when this is voted down in a few hours.
what time is it! NO is the time!
07-23-2023, 06:57 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by HercMasterJ
Honestly, I have no way to determine if what the union is telling me is true or not...for that matter, I can't validate anything the company says to me. I don't have those resources. Therefore, I have to trust my union...and I don't say that lightly because I'm a show me kind of guy. I don't see how this TA will change over night how the company has been doing business for 50 years. Ultimately, and unfortunately, if this fails, we can only hope we get something better...and that will end of costing us lost wages and retirement dollars. I'm not going to put my vote on a hope. I need a real game plan to evaluate, and we don't have one as of yet.
And yes we can recover the pay if we aim for retro pay rather than the meager so called bonus.
07-23-2023, 07:05 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Captain
Posts: 27
Any loss of scope or any scope protection is a losing race
Wondering how many of the negotiators already have a military pension.
The absolute most important thing is Scope…. Over anything else.
I’m in your corner and rooting for you!
Did I mention Scope? If I didn’t… Scope is a sacred entity..
Oh…. And don’t forget Scope no matter what.
Scope
ACMI Carriers are Salivating for you to whittle down your Scope Clause..
Wondering how many of the negotiators already have a military pension.
The absolute most important thing is Scope…. Over anything else.
I’m in your corner and rooting for you!
Did I mention Scope? If I didn’t… Scope is a sacred entity..
Oh…. And don’t forget Scope no matter what.
Scope
ACMI Carriers are Salivating for you to whittle down your Scope Clause..
Last edited by BeanBurrito; 07-23-2023 at 07:31 PM.
07-23-2023, 07:06 PM
#18
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by StarClipper
Wow! That’s all I can say is wow! Even with AA, DL and UA turning down their offer and getting better deals, you don’t believe we can get better? The company have what we want, we have what they need, there must be room to negotiate. Don’t fall for that time value of money crap. Those who negotiated it should have thought of it before sending it out to us. Hold strong, don’t surrender without even throwing a punch.
07-23-2023, 07:09 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by HercMasterJ
Honestly, I have no way to determine if what the union is telling me is true or not...for that matter, I can't validate anything the company says to me. I don't have those resources. Therefore, I have to trust my union...and I don't say that lightly because I'm a show me kind of guy. I don't see how this TA will change over night how the company has been doing business for 50 years. Ultimately, and unfortunately, if this fails, we can only hope we get something better...and that will end of costing us lost wages and retirement dollars. I'm not going to put my vote on a hope. I need a real game plan to evaluate, and we don't have one as of yet.
07-23-2023, 07:14 PM
#20
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by ECCVref20
By this logic I have to ask why, In your opinion, even waste time negotiating at all if it doesn't have bearing on how business is done?
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