Lies, Deceit and Fracture
09-25-2023, 12:56 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Business decisions are made on the margins. TA 1.0 was deemed insufficient by a majority of the pilots. Various margins WILL need to be improved.
While the long "wish list" the OP outlines has certainly been discussed by various NO voters, I'm confident that none of them expect to get the whole list.
I'm unsure of the alternative plan you are suggesting....capitulation?
Which of these items do you feel will get TA2.0 passed?
Is your goal 50%+1?
Expediency?
Or a higher pass rate that shows actually unity? (70-75%)
I find it interesting that those who wish to influence/persuade NO voters feel the most effective way is through lecture....rather than listening.
Hopefully, 50%+1 is NOT our collective goal. If so, the company really will have won.
If it's expediency, then truly listening NOW will be much faster than just continuing to lecture.
Let's not forget, we are ultimately negotiating with the company ---- stay focused there!
In Transparency, Integrity and Unity (for Everyone),
DLax
p.s. 2-3 years IS unacceptable, and is unnecessary. The company should be faced with making their own hard choices well before then. Peak comes every year.
While the long "wish list" the OP outlines has certainly been discussed by various NO voters, I'm confident that none of them expect to get the whole list.
I'm unsure of the alternative plan you are suggesting....capitulation?
Which of these items do you feel will get TA2.0 passed?
Is your goal 50%+1?
Expediency?
Or a higher pass rate that shows actually unity? (70-75%)
I find it interesting that those who wish to influence/persuade NO voters feel the most effective way is through lecture....rather than listening.
Hopefully, 50%+1 is NOT our collective goal. If so, the company really will have won.
If it's expediency, then truly listening NOW will be much faster than just continuing to lecture.
Let's not forget, we are ultimately negotiating with the company ---- stay focused there!
In Transparency, Integrity and Unity (for Everyone),
DLax
p.s. 2-3 years IS unacceptable, and is unnecessary. The company should be faced with making their own hard choices well before then. Peak comes every year.
09-25-2023, 02:19 PM
#13
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 824
Originally Posted by FalseProphet
To put it succinctly, we will be voting in 2 to 3 years on approximately the same TA; Why? because there is no viable recovery plan, pilot unity has been destroyed and the NMB will never release a dysfunctional pilot group to self-help.
Just sayin'
09-29-2023, 02:31 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by FalseProphet
Bold statements, decisive actions; leaders of integrity, transparency and morals are stepping up to take us to a greatly improved contract! The instigators and supporters of this upheaval are still rampantly fanning the flames of dis-unity and mistrust of anyone associated with TA1, but are they themselves capable, are they being forthright, are they functioning on knowledge or emotion or wishful thinking? How about a closer look at the rallying statements of this new regime?
- "more pilots are retiring everyday and more pilots are coming off of probation, soon we'll have the majority we need to get things done." They hopefully understand that every pilot coming off of probation is not 30 years old and not everyone who is coming off of probation feels the same way!
-"they had 20 years to take care of retirement, it's our time now". Every day pilots are getting older, the realization of impending retirement comes at different times to people; regardless retirement has been one of the top issues of every poll; splitting the crewforce along this line is grossly ignorant.
- "a great Scope clause will prevent furloughs, it stops wet-leasing and will ensure seat progression." Any discussion on this matter is purely philosophical; the list of successful scope cases is 1 or Zero; Scope cannot be enforced outside the US, no one is actually willing to give up pay or work-rules for the perception of an unbreakable Scope clause.
- "we can have another TA in 6-9 months". The NMB runs the timeline, you cannot just call them up and quit mediation. With the wholesale recall of the MEC, impending Officer removal, completely new NC, potential replacements of newly seated representatives once they realize that they cannot produce what they promised in their campaign letters; the NMB will likely wait until they are sure that things have stabilized before they re-engage both parties. Additionally, the MEC will have to come to some form of agreement on what issues can or will be addressed in negotiations; it will take them an inordinate amount of time to realize that they cannot address them all.
- " we deserve ________ and ________ and ________." Fill in the blanks! The miss-representation of the ease and rapidity in which changing the landscape of the negotiations to date can occur is borderline criminal. The word "No" can be used by either or both sides, we do not have exclusive rights to it.
-" the hourly pay rates are abysmal, we should be higher than everyone". Did anyone who uttered those words ever transparently explain the causal effects that duty rigs and MPDP have on compensation in other carriers contracts? Did they bother to calculate and compare average W-2's, total earnings and benefits per pilot over their careers? How about the fact that only the very senior pilots on specific aircraft receive that pay; are they intimating that this is their subversive desire, to reward some at the expense of others?
The unfortunate fact is that a group of narcissists, a few former and a current MEC representative, a former negotiator and others, somehow managed to completely fracture this pilot group. They raised the level of distrust to unseen heights, blitzed social-media with their half-truths and irrational conjecture and convinced enough normally level-headed people that the sky was falling. The harm that has been done to countless current and upcoming retirees, the unrecoverable retirement plan contributions and compounding for the younger generation, the immediate and mounting loss of income for every pilot. When the day of reckoning comes, when the realization finally sinks in that there is no more, who will you turn to vilify then? The perpetrators will be gone, some will be retired, others will have scurried off only to deny their involvement and shirk the accountability that goes hand-in-hand with being a true leader. The big winner in all of this is the company, the boogeyman that everyone was so afraid of was brought to life by us, however our management are the only ones reaping the rewards of this insanity. The big losers in this debacle? Look in the mirror, sadly there will be no 100% retro-active pay, there will be no matching pay-rates, there will be no 19-22% CoC B-plan, there will be no $400,000 FAE A-plan. No one can get all of these, that is folly, we will have to pick 1 or 2 and shelve the rest until the next round.
To put it succinctly, we will be voting in 2 to 3 years on approximately the same TA; Why? because there is no viable recovery plan, pilot unity has been destroyed and the NMB will never release a dysfunctional pilot group to self-help.
- "more pilots are retiring everyday and more pilots are coming off of probation, soon we'll have the majority we need to get things done." They hopefully understand that every pilot coming off of probation is not 30 years old and not everyone who is coming off of probation feels the same way!
-"they had 20 years to take care of retirement, it's our time now". Every day pilots are getting older, the realization of impending retirement comes at different times to people; regardless retirement has been one of the top issues of every poll; splitting the crewforce along this line is grossly ignorant.
- "a great Scope clause will prevent furloughs, it stops wet-leasing and will ensure seat progression." Any discussion on this matter is purely philosophical; the list of successful scope cases is 1 or Zero; Scope cannot be enforced outside the US, no one is actually willing to give up pay or work-rules for the perception of an unbreakable Scope clause.
- "we can have another TA in 6-9 months". The NMB runs the timeline, you cannot just call them up and quit mediation. With the wholesale recall of the MEC, impending Officer removal, completely new NC, potential replacements of newly seated representatives once they realize that they cannot produce what they promised in their campaign letters; the NMB will likely wait until they are sure that things have stabilized before they re-engage both parties. Additionally, the MEC will have to come to some form of agreement on what issues can or will be addressed in negotiations; it will take them an inordinate amount of time to realize that they cannot address them all.
- " we deserve ________ and ________ and ________." Fill in the blanks! The miss-representation of the ease and rapidity in which changing the landscape of the negotiations to date can occur is borderline criminal. The word "No" can be used by either or both sides, we do not have exclusive rights to it.
-" the hourly pay rates are abysmal, we should be higher than everyone". Did anyone who uttered those words ever transparently explain the causal effects that duty rigs and MPDP have on compensation in other carriers contracts? Did they bother to calculate and compare average W-2's, total earnings and benefits per pilot over their careers? How about the fact that only the very senior pilots on specific aircraft receive that pay; are they intimating that this is their subversive desire, to reward some at the expense of others?
The unfortunate fact is that a group of narcissists, a few former and a current MEC representative, a former negotiator and others, somehow managed to completely fracture this pilot group. They raised the level of distrust to unseen heights, blitzed social-media with their half-truths and irrational conjecture and convinced enough normally level-headed people that the sky was falling. The harm that has been done to countless current and upcoming retirees, the unrecoverable retirement plan contributions and compounding for the younger generation, the immediate and mounting loss of income for every pilot. When the day of reckoning comes, when the realization finally sinks in that there is no more, who will you turn to vilify then? The perpetrators will be gone, some will be retired, others will have scurried off only to deny their involvement and shirk the accountability that goes hand-in-hand with being a true leader. The big winner in all of this is the company, the boogeyman that everyone was so afraid of was brought to life by us, however our management are the only ones reaping the rewards of this insanity. The big losers in this debacle? Look in the mirror, sadly there will be no 100% retro-active pay, there will be no matching pay-rates, there will be no 19-22% CoC B-plan, there will be no $400,000 FAE A-plan. No one can get all of these, that is folly, we will have to pick 1 or 2 and shelve the rest until the next round.
To put it succinctly, we will be voting in 2 to 3 years on approximately the same TA; Why? because there is no viable recovery plan, pilot unity has been destroyed and the NMB will never release a dysfunctional pilot group to self-help.
Your posts are some of the most pathetic I’ve seen on APC and that is really saying something given the folks on here. It’s cool KT! Everything will be fine. Breathe in, hold, breathe out.
