The NC stays … for now!
 

Nothing like kicking the can down the road until May 2024.

Our union is still a clown show!

And what does “successful terms” mean?
“This agreement will take us up to the May 2024 bid month. If by this time, successful terms have not been bargained, then there will be a transition of the Negotiating Committee.”

And what moves were made “behind the scenes” so as to keep our present NC in place? I thought this group ran on transparency?

Hey MEC Chair: clean the house, you big dummy. PM is no messiah. he needs to go, and it’s sounding like you need to go also.

Unbelievable.

how is going scorched earth at this point going to do anything but lose every pilot money? I agree PM completely hosed us and should have resigned, but here we are back at the table with no end in sight. Clearly the company doesn’t value us as much as we thought and with the soft future outlook and new bosses at the helm we can’t expect any more money thrown our way for future TA’s. That’s a terrible situation, but unfortunately it’s reality. The longer we delay the more money we’re losing every single day.

Parking lot deal 2.0 inbound.

Exactly. So why delay this until May?

and yes, the company doesn’t value us. clearly.

having a brand new NC would mean we wouldn’t be able to negotiate for our scheduled sessions

Says who? PM? The same guy trying to keep his job? I guess he better not get sick or have a family emergency. I guess the other folks on the committee just sit and watch PM do everything!

Its important to keep PM in place because he’s good buds with PD.

so reschedule!
what would take longer? another failed TA negotiated by a known liar, or organizing a new team?

He lied when he said that he would step down. he threatened us with a furlough should his TA fail, he got outclassed on scope, pay, QOL, and retirement. and now we’re going to send him back into the lion’s den when he’s already made a nest in there, telling the pilot group that we need to accept less because UPS is “eating our lunch!”

what magic words is he now using to stay as NC? this dude needs to step down and go back to the line.

Reps: do not go down this road again. oh, but it’s too late. you all signed a thing keeping him there until May with ambiguous language regarding progress on the TA. when May rolls around with another weak TA or worse, you all need to be recalled again because apparently YOU REPS AREN’T LISTENING!!!!!!!

I don’t always agree with you or your style but this is spot on! +1

nobody crashes starting a clock...
 

I fully respect your right to do the "I told ya so" dance in May if there is no progress. Please everyone just punch your clock and count to ten and breathe. We'll eventually get through this and people on the NC/MEC don't want to work at 2015 wages either. We are all on the same side.

Many on this board remind me of children who are told "NO" by their parents... "but I really want to do this" NO... but I Really Really want this .. etc

Going nuclear just because you aren't satisfied with a direction or decision is not a good coping mechanism. You are only a CAPT on "your" aircraft and we all need some good CRM to get to an uneventful landing and bfast beer. Let's tone the rhetoric down. We have a direction till May, get onboard. Maybe practice your dance.
Happy New Year!! 🎉

True.

Our options (as I saw them) were:
1) press ahead now with current NC and hope(?) the company is ready to make meaningful moves in the coming weeks. IMO there is a very real risk of a rushed TA1.1 by May, it failing, and very long delays after.
2) sack the NC, delay a few months, get our $h!t in a sock, and get a true TA2.0 without QOL concessions, real scope changes, and a more equitable distribution of $$$ and negotiating capital. Of course there's no guarantee the CO brings more $$$ with this option, but at least we'd in theory be using the $$$ available more in accordance with the greater pilot group priorities.

Looks like we're going with option 1. Fingers crossed but skepticism high.

You are wrong. and you say I’m childish, and I say you are naive.

tell me: what is childish about expecting the NC to do as he said: step down?

what is childish about expecting the union to represent the workers?

the adult thing to do is to clean house and start fresh, but the children are holding onto power at the expense of the union body!

the children are maneuvering for a 50+1 TA.

the adults are willing to wait for a fresh start and a fresh perspective, but the children are crying and screaming for the way it was.

and don’t gaslight me bro, we have every reason to be upset with how these children are behaving. poorly.

just breathe... i didn't say "you".. i said people, but you proved my point.

[QUOTE=Anthrax;3743025]so reschedule!
what would take longer? another failed TA negotiated by a known liar, or organizing a new team?
/QUOTE]

Nailed it. The reps who sought a new negotiating chairman, but agreed to this just got hoodwinked by the old Washington two-step. This doesn't solve anything, in fact it exacerbates it by kicking the can down the road by adding four additional months of wasted time. Do they think the same gaslighting over replacing Pat May isn't going to happen when we approach the end of April?! It will be even worse by that point.

Dang twice in one day. +2

my breath is fine, you condescending twat!

still no... and go to your room.

and nobody over 40 uses the word gaslighting unless you have teen daughters or watch The View all day. nice maturity you've got. 🤣

my maturity is far better than your grammar. and who are you to say who uses what words when? and how would you know the lingo of the view unless you’re a fan.

tell me to breathe, again. I keep forgetting.

and tell me more, oh learned one. your pearls aren’t just dripping off your neck from last nights party. clearly, you have so much to offer.

PLENTY of us are under 40. Partly why TA1 was voted down.

I voted no too... and I'm 56. Let the process play out. All but 2 mec peeps agreed to wait till May. So everyone quit crying.

We pay for representation. this isn't a game and no one is under any obligation to just accept their leadership. The biggest problem is they've never experienced anything like this.

Them: shut up and color

Others: go eat a bag of @#$s

Don’t voice dissent or you’re crying. tell me, were you crying when you voted no, a dissenting vote?

so far as I can tell, you came on here crying about those of us who want to hold the union accountable.

I'm not crying( I'm a rich old capt who only flies blg) 🤣.. but some people are picking the wrong side to fight against.. direct that energy toward the correct people. We have a consensus among a majority in the MEC and they have a plan... We have new MEC leadership, give them a chance.

***you know you hit a nerve when name calling and grammar police show up. cheers "bros".. I don't want to argue.

This "agreement" (will we ever see a formal resolution codifying this backroom deal?) is just a kicking of the can for four additional months. The way I see it, there are three possible outcomes by May:
1. Nothing changes. As we approach the end of April, PM uses the same argument yet again to extend the deadline on his own job. After all, now we're super deep into negotiations! We can't start over now!
2. We get a ****ty TA1.1 that shuffles money around from TA1, but has no significant overall improvement. TA is voted down even harder than the first one because it is now even more clear just how lagging our first TA was. Every legacy and soon Southwest will be way ahead of us. I think this outcome is the most likely.
3. ****ty TA1.1 passes because of negotiating fatigue and impatience in the face of MASSIVE INFLATION. FedEx has raised shipping rates over 25% since our last pay raise. It's understandable that we need a raise immediately, but IMO getting the right deal (with 100% retro pay) is more important.

None of those options are good. We should have ripped the bandaid off and replaced the NC as soon as the TA failed. Waiting longer to rip it off isn't going to make the situation any better. Bookmark this thread for May and tell me I was wrong. I'd love to be wrong.

Honest question— what does the company have to lose by prolonging negotiations indefinitely? Zero. I hated TA1 and voted NO within seconds of reading it. However, it makes no sense to clean house and lose all that precious time. We’re not going to be getting any significant money from the company folks. All the flights are being flown, people still volunteering to help out, overall volume is down, and we’re overstaffed. Waiting years will do nothing but lose us money.

You state honest question and then you answer your own question? TA1 wasn't the problem it was the result. The people who negotiated it presented it defended and high pressure sold it are. Was the last MEC a bunch of idiots with no sense? That's not a rhetorical question? They were given guidence by their negotiator and they signed off. The very same thing is happening now. All the leadership is coalecing around an outcome and when the result is produced its gonna get cosigned. Believing anything else is letting hope override your lived expereince. That same guy is gonna come with slides about declining volumes and staffing levels. Hell you yourself are already determining what the limitations of what we can expect based upon current conditions that are most likely temporary. We need to play our hand and they need to play theirs. Not a day goes by when another FDX pilot doesn't sit around prognosticating about things for which they have no control and even less understanding.

Any gains achieved are gonna come at a cost. Thats what this union and many of its members don't want to accept. Negotiation is a blood sport not a knitting circle. Nearly a decade here and all ive seen was pilots who thought they were so clever and smooth give away stuff we like to get stuff we might like better.

Put your own O2 mask on first... preachin'
 

It amazes me how much energy and passion people put into these posts and the perceived fear of a failed negotiation 2.0 and the detrimental effects on your career/earnings. Time is money... and you can't get back time. Easy math with a financial calculator to see what any payrate/retirement change will yield over a contract period... and how many months of 2015 payrates w/o a raise will require more than a normal contract period to recoup lost wages. Job security... I get it. We all want it, that's why I'm here and I want the company and employees to do well so the pension is paid till I'm 100. So, I'm glad peeps are fighting for scope.

BUT, how much effort are you putting into your own financial well being? You can't control every aspect of a contract negotiation. You can control your own prep for eventual retirement. I've seen more pilots do SIGNIFICANT financial damage to themselves more than any NC/MEC ever could win back in a contract negotiation. Marry well, for some of you... get anger management... or a good lawyer/prenup... have plenty of ins/disability ins/trusts/wills and seek outside financial advice.

Any newhire who has a 25+ yr career here will be worth 9+ million dollars at retirement if you don't lose half due to divorce, family illness or poor choices. So keep your spouse happy, exercise and limit risky behaviors. We will get a great contract and I will retire and relieve overmanning. I wish all y'all a Happy New Year!!

shut up!!!

yes... the anger management was directed at you 🤣 thx for taking the bait 🤣😂

Sounds like you need to get your own financial well-being in order if you’re relying on a rushed TA to plump up your retirement so you can retire. I say, let’s take our time and get this right. If it takes two years, it takes two years.

I can retire anytime. If I wanted to plump it up, I would have voted yes the first time. I will put my net worth up against any Delta or United guy who started in 2000 to show that the contracts at any major over the last 20+yrs have little to do with your net worth or income generation at retirement...We are all in the same ballpark. I'm not saying rush anything... I just believe there is a segment of pilots who will never be satisfied regardless of who is negotiating or what the deal is.

If getting it right is two more yrs from now.. I estimate we would need to be at 30$ /hr more than delta rates just to break even with the income loss after 4 yrs, even with a large retro.. and 6yrs total could be 25% of your career. We all want what we deserve, but you have to do the math on career earnings.

I'm surprised this isn't brought up more often.

This whole thing is a raw deal and backdoor union and company politics. My guess is we see a deal in March or April. The vote would close after FY earnings and before the postal contract. It will have a few words in section 1 changed, but not enough to truly have an impact on scope. The R16, student lines, etc will be gone, and they'll give up block over 8/10. Pay rates will come in below the legacies, but they'll spin it with vacation and getting rid of R16 and the rest. Retirement will be slightly modified for the better, and that is what they will try to sell, again.

Hope i'm wrong.

I had a conversation with a block 7 rep and he had an interesting question. "What is your premium?". What amount of value over Delta would I accept in the new TA.

How many pilots would accept delta pay rates and we go back to our current contract on QOL issues? If we don't change the A plan as much there is money for Delta rates. I'm a 22 year Capt I voted no. Would I have liked a big bump in retirement, you bet but it wasn't worth it to me to trade the A plan for 11% and split the crew force into have and have nots.

We got more money per pilot than Delta and United by 10%. We just chose to spend too much of it on the A Plan. I have read a bunch of times on APC that our 2015 retirement was the best in the industry. I have also read a bunch of times that we should have fixed the A plan in previous contracts. Our retirement is more than our A plan, it is a total package with the company bearing most of the risk. Personally I like that aspect of it. If you have been here for close to 25 years and have been planning on something greater than 130k for the A plan, you are a fool.

I would like to leave the A plan alone and go to 15 to 18% with COC in my B fund. Yes I will pay some tax, but the B fund is in my name to invest how I want and the company is still on the hook for the A plan. That would bring us back to industry leading.

I am curious how the FedEx negotiating committee works? At almost all other airlines it works directly with the MEC. As they prepare term sheets for the company and receive term sheets back the MEC is normally 100% in the loop and not only knows what is going on but provides the direction they expect the NC to follow. Are things different at FedEx? It sounds like from posts they operate autonomously.

Maddog64:

The "value" of the contract is the issue. No one at the union has disclosed how much the sunsetting of the A-plan will save the company. Unless you put a number on that, the "value" of the contract is a made up, completely wrong value. I am reminded of 2015, when an executive, on the shareholder call, said essentially, "don't worry about the cost of the contract, we will gain it back in 6 months due to efficiencies".

So, your premise that the TA "got more money than Delta or United by 10%" is a falsehood. If you can't understand that, you need to think about it. If Block 7 can't understand that, I will be glad to vote for a recall for him on Jan 17, because he is not smart enough to represent me.

Yes, i would like to see the B fund increase, rather than MBCBP that will be held by the company. I'll make my own financial decisions with my money, thank you very much.

However, leaving the A plan the same is an automatic no vote. We have kicked that can down the road long enough. If you don't bump the A plan, preferably to IRS limits, you are screwing the guys getting ready to retire, who will see no benefit from the B plan increase. So, it has to be blended. There has to be something (A plan increase) for the old guys, as we as something (B plan increase) for the younger guys.

If you don't satisfy both groups, you are favoring one over the other, which is categorically wrong.

Also, don't even think about trading BKO for anything.

The pie needs to get bigger, instead of shuffling the money around, we deserve, (COVID), and have earned (COVID) more.

I fear a TA 1.1 that will be voted in by 51% or voted down, setting us back for years.

The NC is supposed to do the MEC's bidding. That does not seem to happen here. PM has too much power, and that is another reason he needs to go.

100% in agreement.

This is a flawed argument. You don't care about value, you care about making the company bleed. Value is what you are paid, and it's determined by the market demand for your position and your qualifications. Regardless of its cost or value, the pension is a liability the company is on the hook for.

Our union chose to go all in on increasing the pension in TA1. There was a ton of value added to pilot's retirement. The modeler showed me with $500k added to my retirement account for the A plan increase. Even more for the MBCBP. But those retirement gains appeared to come at the cost of.... everything else. Which is why it was voted down.

To think that pension increase wasn't enough because it didn't cost the company enough is absurd. Good luck proving that to the NMB. All the other airlines with their amazing contracts, how much was their legacy pension increase? 0%. Ours was 30% in TA1. I'm sure the NMB will be very sympathetic that 30% wasn't enough relative to 0% everywhere else.

All your mindset will do is cost us time, and time is money. The focus should be on fixing the other shortcomings of TA1.

At least you got this right. But the MBCBP was negotiated so that we could get the A plan increase. Without ending the pension for new hires, there is no significant A plan increase. So there's a problem. Your path of not splitting the retirement, best case will end up with a multiplier bump for older guys on the A plan, and a couple % added to the B plan. That will cost many pilots a lot of money in retirement compared to TA1.

The focus should be on improving TA1's retirement, finding the right mix of % for both the DC and MBCBP, and adding some CoC feature. Not dropping it entirely so we can have a mediocre increase in the pension and DC fund. Also, we should obviously target the pay rates we deserve without the QOL concessions.

What I care about is that "my" union LIED to me in order to attempt to sell me a sub-standard contract. The valuation they put on the TA was bogus, plain and simple. It is a made up number, with no bearing in reality.

Unless we know how much the company saved by sunsetting the A plan, we will never know how much we "gained" compared to other airlines.

Why can't you understand that?

When are we going to stop giving away parts of our contract for less than inflation "raises"?

Now there is talk that the company wants us to give up BKO. If we agree to that, the NC is truly composed of idiots.

If we really went "all in" on increasing the pension, we would have raised the A plan to IRS limits. If the TA had passed, the A plan would have never been increased again. The numbers proposed, and the delay in getting to the final number, were a complete joke.

It is not about making the company bleed. They bought back over 6 BILLION in stock, so they are not bleeding. It is about getting what we are worth, what we have earned, and what we deserve.

No, they're not different here. That's exactly how it works and how it did work.

Unfortunately, there's a bad narrative that has been propogated by a few on social media and then spread like wild fire that the NC Chair went rogue. He did not. He followed the direction of the MEC. The MEC had stale data (hadn't surveyed in almost 2 years) and chose to keep things under wraps until the TA was voted on by MEC. The lack of transparancy and stale data from the MEC have led a few to believe that the NC Chair just did things on his own. Pure misinformation that is still being spread.

The NC Chair is STILL working at the pleasure of the MEC and doing exactly what they're tasking him to do. But the loudest voices with internet access will not be happy until he's removed from the MEC.