The Many Negative Effects of Student Lines
 

As stated in recent MEC & NC communications, the company has still not agreed to eliminate the new “Student Lines” which were, unfortunately, negotiated into our failed TA1.0.

While the union’s initial position was that these new “Student Lines” would only affect a few select, senior First Officers, the union's understanding and position has (supposedly) changed.

A group of pilots collected the specific data below and presented it to the union leadership.

It’s shared here to help educate all pilots, so we may collectively understand the many negative primary, secondary and tertiary, effects on ALL First Officers in each fleet.

The first, critical step, is to understand the number of LCAs in each fleet

As of mid December 2023:

B757 – 57

B767 – 54

B777 – 57

A300 – 30

MD11 – 30

Total LCA’s = 228

(Note: 777 may be as many as 30 LCAs undermanned based of scheduled fleet growth & training. This would increase total LCAs to 258)

In order to understand the full impact of blocking off 40% of all LCA hard lines awarded, we must first understand and track the total number of LCAs being awarded hard lines in each bid back.

For example, in the MEM 757 bid pack for September 2023 there were 45 active LCAs total. 5 of those were in a PAY ONLY status, leaving 40 LCA's eligible to bid a hard line. While we do not know what each LCA bid, we know 36 were awarded hard lines, while 4 were awarded Reserve or Secondary Lines.

Under the proposed Student Line metric, the company could have identified 40% of those 36 awarded hard lines as Student Lines. 36 x .40 = 14.4 lines. Thus, 14 FOs would have been denied the lines they wanted to fly, and would have been directed to the View/Add Window to rebuild their month.

Assuming an AVG BLG of 74 hours, those 14 pilots would then be choosing the best 1,036 hours worth of trips they could obtain in the View/Add window. These hours equate to 172 single-day, 6 hr trips - a very significant number of the very best trips before the Secondary Line process even started.

The #1 VTO would effectively become the #15 VTO, and every subsequent VTO would fall back an equal amount. The bottom VTOs would have a far lower chance of getting actual trips, and would most likely receive more R days.

Assuming the number of pilots needed on Reserve is unaffected by the number of Student Lines, the natural next effect is the total number of FOs needed is reduced.

Let’s now extrapolate this 757 example across all fleets.

Traditionally, about 15% of LCA’s are “Pay Only” each month due to the requirement to administer line checks. Additionally, 10-15% of LCAs bid VTO or Reserve. Thus, in any given bid month 25-30% of the LCAs do not bid hard lines.

This yields 70-75% of LCAs bidding and being awarded hard lines, of which 40% could be designated “Student Lines”. This means, 28%-30% of all LCAs in each fleet would have “Student Lines’.

To see the first order effects we multiply # of LCAs in each fleet x 30%:

B757 – 57 LCAs x .30 = 17 lines

B767 – 54 LCAs x .30 = 16 lines

B777 – 57 LCAs x .30 = 17 lines

A300 – 30 LCAs x .30 = 9 lines

MD11 – 30 x .30 = 9 lines

Total LCA’s = 239 x .30 = 68 lines

Of course, this is only the first order effect. There are additional second and third order effects, which are equally critical. Every FO in the bid pack will be affected!

Allowing designated “Student Lines” WILL…
- Lower the total # of hard lines available to bid
- Decrease the chance of EVERY first officer from holding their preferred line
- Increase the # of pilots picking up the trips in the View/Add window
- Decrease the # of trips available to ALL Secondary Line holders
- Increase the chance Secondary Line holders are assigned R-days due to less trips
- Increase Reserve Utilization when the LCA is not assigned a student, and the seat must be filled
- Decreasing the overall need for FOs due to increased efficiency

In conclusion, agreeing to a scheduling concession, which reduces choice, seniority, quality of life, increases reserve utilization AND reduces the number of FOs in each fleet/domicile, is certainly NOT a core mission of ALPA, and shouldn’t ever be an acceptable negotiation chip.

Hopefully, our union representatives remain steadfast in removing Student Lines from any future TA.

In Transparency, Integrity and Unity (for Everyone),
DLax

Thanks for putting hard numbers to what many of us intrinsically knew.

DLax-

Have you posted this in the SM chat? They will be incensed.

It's perplexing is that the junior vote is the biggest road block but they're hanging on to one of the most egregious concessions that they attempted to foist upon the junior group. It almost seems as if they're not really trying to get a contract done.

(hopefully the sarcasm dripping from this post is obvious, but there are those on here that never seem to get it)

Merle

Not only did TA1 require you to make up those hours, but they tried to sell the 125% as a win. Currently I don't have to fly and still make 100%, but if I choose to fly I make at a minimum 200%. 100% for being bought off the trip plus 100% for flying another trip. Absolutely ridiculous that they even attempted to sell this as a good thing.

I wouldn't want to be one of the first FOs trained on a new fleet. You would get screwed extra hard for a few years in a row.

They keep trying to sneak in stuff like this gradually so that eventually we become the ones begging them for PBS.

Hold the line.

Idk this seems like a minor change. If open time and XTRA isn’t being manipulated then it’s not so bad to go into view add at 125%. Not to mention no one would complain when the trips were plentiful and picking that up at a premium would be a no brainer. Besides if you don’t want the LCA line avoid them. I don’t think that’s a show stopper on the student lines. Your computations def support your argument but I don’t think it effects enough of the pilot group to push the needle.

-Bubs

All guys are looking at are pay rates. If the company matched DL and wants the student lines the TA will pass. FX pilots have shown greed is all that matters.

Your post paraphrased: "Doesn't affect me so it's not really a big change imo"

Good job completely disregarding the meat and potatoes of the OP.

The bigger issue is the compilation of lies from the company, and an even larger problem is our union refusing to acknowledge them. PD in his “leaked” audio said student lines aren’t a big deal and they’d be “lucky” to utilize one or two a month. Clearly, that’s a lie since it’s a sticking point. The same schedulers assigning R24 outside CBA provisions won’t be efficient to maximize student lines? BS

Two years in a row the wet least payment has been screwed up by the company - that’s dishonesty.

They lied when they said (pre-vote) the CGN lines would end up in the MEM57 Bidpack. They’re outsourcing everything to ASL.

they tried to cut our deviation banks in half a month early. Mistake? BS

They lied about wanting to “simplify” wet lease payments - online posters have shown TA1 would have reduced the payments by upwards of 90%.

Clearly we are in a situation where FS will no longer take care of his pilots because of his excessive pride in the airline he built. Now the bean counters are in charge and the relationship has turned adversarial. The SM types need to get their heads out of their asses and acknowledge our new reality.

The absolute best thing for us would be for UPS to get a deal first - they don’t have a union as deeply divided as ours. Sad to say, our union just doesn’t have the fight.

Quiz questions:

Regardless of who gets awarded the Student Lines…

What happens to the total # of lines available for bid in each bid pack?

What happens when senior guys (or anyone) avoid the Student Lines and now bid their next best choice?

What happens to the # and quality of trips in Open Time from which the VTO lines can be built?

When any change decreases the number & quality of trips which everyone in that bidpack can bid upon, it affects EVERYONE in that bid pack - it just ripples through from top to bottom.

VR,
DLax

just wait till your in a seat with minimal trips available to build your schedule with. Shotgun line sound like fun?

As I mentioned previously 125% would be a pay cut. Currently if we choose to fly we get a minimum 200%. Everything about student lines was a loss, hence the company fighting so hard to keep them.

Lots of conpiracy theories, no facts.

Ok Stan...please tell us more about how much smarter you are than everyone else. Even though factual numbers were presented and you just come on here spouting your typical nonsense.

Everything in my previous post is a fact. PD lied to the LCAs when he “leaked” that student lines were an easy giveback, just to have the company dig in.

Mgmt lied about CGN flying in the MEM Bidpack. They lied about “simplifying calculations” (vs reducing by over 90%) of wet least penalties.

Mgmt has routinely violated R-24 trip assignments per the grievance committee. Mgmt cut deviation banks a month early. They screwed up wet lease payments two years in a row. Do you honestly think any of those issues would be rectified without pilots pushing back via the union?

Everything above is a fact. That doesn’t even begin to address disingenuous actions like lie-flat seats, R-24 HSTBY, expense report close-outs, etc.

Don’t listen to Stan. He’s still angry that TA 1 failed. He’s senior, and doesn’t give a crap about junior guys. Anyone who has ever flown with him has absolutely nothing good to say about him.

I only wish you put the same fervor into 100% vacation buy back. That has the potentioal to have an effect magnitudes greater than SMU.;)

At other airlines, they build IOE-only lines which go into a special bucket that only the LCAs who will be conducting IOE that month are eligle to bid. A buddy at AA says some Captains whine about it since they are way senior to the LCA who was awarded Line X, but that's just how they do it. That type of idea wasn't floated here because it would be DOA. Can't touch the Captains around here - they are seated at the right hand of the Father and what's theirs is their and what's your is theirs to quote a famous one from long ago. Want to abrogate seniority which is all this money-grab is? Then do it to the Captains, too, and pull trips out of the bid packs making IOE Only Lines that only the LCAs can bid. But don't worry, Captains, you can go pick stuff up at 125%. See how THAT idea goes over. Anything short of that unsupportable idea and we are just screwing F/Os and allowing seniority to be nullified.

1000% THIS!

So you had one CA a long time ago make an absurd statement and you are still bitter? Our pilots have shown there is plenty of greed in both seats. So guys want DL payrates but think the company isn't going to get something in return, as in student lines, float that by the mediator.

Sorry I don't follow your narrow views like the majority on here. And yes, I am wiser.

😂

The ego!
Another adversary on this side of the table.

Funniest part of this post is the boomers on JF who can't get their internet to work...

Inflation adjusted pay should not require ANY give-backs, it is merely a change in the cost of doing business (inherent throughout the entire economy) that is already being reflected in shipping rate increases. It is not our responsibility to subsidize the end product. The AVERAGE wage increase in the US since our last raise is 25.19% according to the Social Security Administration. The average worker did not endure what we did to generate record profits for their employer during that period. Unless we get significantly more than 25.19%, there is absolutely nothing to "horse trade" over. How is this lost on you?

Let the company tell the mediator that costs have gone up and should therefore be absorbed by the flight crews. To use your words, "Float that by the mediator". You sir, are the inherent problem with collective bargaining.

I’m convinced Stan446 isn’t a seniority list pilot. The poster has too much fun stirring the pot and going against.. you know.. basic fundamental knowledge of everything that is good for our group. They are a troll on the outside looking in. Don’t bother trying to reason or argue with them because it’s futile.

Not everyone is bitter and angry like the minority here. Stirring the pot, hardly, contrary opinion yes. You won't see anything but the same angry posters here and you hate it when someone doesn't agree with you. Yep, try the discredit thing by saying I'm not a FX pilot. Latest FX news on PFC, B-757 update, Jan 31, 2024

Hey Stan, why don't you address why your orginal reaction to the TA was "our negotiating committee threw us under the bus again"? Thanks!

Nope, never flew with the doucher, but he's way famous around these parts. Flew with good ol' Capt Savage on multiple airplanes and didn't put up with his crap at all. My statement had nothing to do with greed nor am I bitter. I was simply pointing out that the seniority abrogation that the student lines proposal represents would never fly around here if it also impacted Captains. Just an observation about the tribal nature of our Union and our NC. Since FedEx made billions with a 'b' during Covid, has bought back billions in stock, has dramatically raised shipping rates since our last contract expired, well I don't think it's a hard sell that we deserve AT LEAST inflation adjusted pay rate increases and probably a little something extra.

So you define yourself as happy?

I agree that student lines are a bit of a concession. But can you see how getting paid 100% for not working can bother the company a bit. One of managements main focuses in this negotiation is to not pay guys for not working. Maybe not working contributes to your screen name MediocrePilot.

An interesting position - do you think we should apply those same rules when both pilots are bumped from training?

….or when a change of gauge occurs?

…or when a trip is revised to return to a pilots home domicile early?

I’m confident you know pilots are paid 100% for “not working” in all those instances.

When any pilot bids any line they are responsible for flying that line - if the company chooses to remove them for any reason, that’s a choice the company makes willingly. The pilot has zero control and zero choice.

The “this is only a bit of a concession” mentality is a very slippery slope — and exactly how you boil the whole frog slowly.

Additionally, you are ignoring the second and third order effects of those FOs not being awarded any line at all, and being forced to rebuild their whole month in the View/Add Window.

The effects will be far greater. Please understand the whole process and ripple affect upon all FOs below.

Surveys have been taken. Focus Groups have been held. Student Lines made the list of major concessions this pilot group doesn’t want to see.

Will our NC & Union Leadership stand fast?

It’s a fair question we need to ask prior to TA1.1/2.0….not afterwards.

In Transparency, Integrity and Unity (for Everyone),

DLax

We should definitely strive for a regional contract is what you are saying. Got to get the mission done, right?

MediocrePilot said he doesn't have to fly and still makes 100%. Just seems a little greedy and unrealistic to me. That's not the work ethic my parents taught me.

well we’re not working at mom and pop’s shoe repair store. Raj isnt a small business owner. This is one of those “industry standard” things that would be extremely dangerous to vote in. It would open the door for more student lines down the road.

Hasn't the system we have now of buying FOs off LCA lines been in place for decades?
Why now has a segment of the pilot group decided buying FOs off LCA lines is greedy and unrealistic. Have you been lobbying your whole career to
eliminate these pilot friendly sections of the contract, or just this contract cycle?

It would be just as greedy to enjoy the perks of our contract your entire career and then try to sell them away to get a windfall on your way out the door. No idea your specific situation, but the people with decades left in their careers are going to view your motives suspiciously.

Why don't we just put all the F.O.'s who get bought off their lines due to training into the reserve lot for the footprint of all their trips for the whole month. We don't want to be paid for doing nothing after all. Just go back to the squadron chief.

When the manning level thins, those on reserve are going to feel a new kind of pain!

Since it's not right for FOs to be paid for not working, I think it's only fair we terminate the pension plan in its entirety. Paying retirees for not working is even more appalling.

Gentleman -

The solution has always been, and will always be - sustained, steadfast unity.

Their approach will always be to divide, and market their desires as micro-changes .

Let's refocus our collective efforts on management.

The NC has always told us they look past the NC....at the pilots. That hasn't changed!

VR,
DLax

I hope you are able to keep your current language. Here at Brown, the company can elect to withhold the lines awarded to IOE iinstructors. Not optimum, but the idea of building a line from nothing (even at 125%) seems like a horrible plan.

Language:
Each bid period the Company shall have the right to designate a specified number of lines which have been bid and awarded to IOE instructor crewmembers for the purpose of IOE training. These lines may be bid by First Officers for pay purposes only but will be available for bid by Second Officers. The Company will assign the First Officers needing IOE training to these lines.

If they do not pre-designate, and then award the line to FOs and the company wants the seat for IOE, the FO gets displaced with pay.